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24093376 No.24093376 [Reply] [Original]

Distribution of thots, who is up for the tastk edition

>Brokers
Tastytrade by far no 1
TD Ameritrade
Everything else is probably shit

>IV Filtering
https://fdscanner.com/

>Risk Management
Not much to say, we can all YOLO and loose money. It is mathematically proven that with high number of occurrences we get closer to the mean average of our returns. Not more than 1-2% max loss per trade.

>Live Streams
https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/live

>Educational Sites
https://www.tastytrade.com/tt/learn/

>Free Charts
http://www.tradingview.com

>Flow screeners
https://swaggystocks.com
https://www.waffles.finance/
https://marketchameleon.com/ (my favorite)

>Options profit calculator
https://www.optionsprofitcalculator.com/
(pretty useless if you have a good broker, but not everyone does)

>Commandments and tips
http://tastytradenetwork.squarespace.com/tt/blog/-tastytrade-trading-commandments

>Literature
https://mega.nz/folder/wwVH0KLB#HkcUbCIz_Q-NyELfEA0P1A

>> No.24093470

aaayyyyy thought we weren't gonna have one today
my CLF calls that the CLFfag convinced me to buy are finally positive today, looks like it's on a pretty steady uptread still so I'm thinking of buying a little more if it dips in the coming week

>> No.24093475

>bull put spread this morning on ET
>Nov 20 6/6.5 +10
>sinks to $5.95/share, close the position while the lower put is still good

>now almost back to $6.11 which was break even

Time to go run box spreads on SPX

>> No.24093517

has there ever been a better time to sell naked puts on brent ?

>> No.24093541

I am just little babby selling covered calls and puts, but a lot of my customers are walking away empty handed today.

>> No.24093584

>>24093517
I’m unbelievably tempted desu.

If it even hit 2018 levels you’d be Gucci forever

>> No.24093598

look at that IDEX volume gentlemen, that is an IV worth selling

>> No.24093622

>>24093584
literally having the worlds producers on your side, aaaah, i remember those days when we could sell negative price options on Crude lads, sweet memories

>> No.24093698

i have found an interesting options strategy backtesting place,
https://info.orats.com

do we have any empirical knowledge on this one?

>> No.24093702

>>24093622
Honestly the P/L chart for short naked puts on Brent is very tempting.

>> No.24093734

When do you all think the Fed/Treasury will yank the fiscal put that is currently in place?

I'm going to buy SPY puts when the economy opens up again.

>> No.24093743

>>24093702
if you ever feel like doing naked, do yourself a favour and go for 45 dte , and manage it at 21, either roll if you get fucked OR take profits

>> No.24093782

>>24093734
that is an interesting question, it seems FED is already showing the middle finger since Trump went out, so lets see, i can see bonds are picking up, we wont see negative rates, but the market will crash at some point again despite the liquidity

>> No.24093812

I dont trade options but how much leverage does it use if you can compare it like that. For example tsla goes up 1% how much would you get with options?

>> No.24093824

>>24093470
b...b...but i thought we were theta gang and shit

>> No.24093863

>>24093812
For each contract you have, each point itm is $100

>> No.24093867

>>24093812
1 option is 100 shares of the underlying asset, do the calculation, having said that it makes more sense to sell premium than buy it

>> No.24093872

>>24093812
Depends on the option. Could be a little as 5% or as much as 25%

>> No.24093895

>>24093743
Just got fucked on my ET verticals this morning but I had paper hands and fucked myself

Looking at it I could run a short call fly at 10/11/13 for 16 APR 21 and my break evens are 10.53 and 11.53 and infinite upside with a max loss of $58.71 per

>> No.24093922

>>24093824
I'm too poor to be thetagang yet
One day I'll join you glorious chads, but for now I'm on the degenerate gambler side

>> No.24093949

>>24093922
that is a myth fren, you need 2k usd to join theta gang, maybe 3k, it aint much to ask for
>>24093895
thats the POP ?

>> No.24093981
File: 54 KB, 1145x491, thetagang.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
24093981

check this out lads

>> No.24094044

>>24093949
>you need 2k usd to join theta gang, maybe 3k
Huh, 2K is pretty much exactly what I'm at

>> No.24094069

>>24093949
Not sure what the calculation is for a fly. Same as a strangle?

Hinges on if I can sell them for .40 but bud/ask is all over the place

>> No.24094127
File: 497 KB, 1349x695, CBOE happiness.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
24094127

>>24093376
I love LEAPS

>> No.24094149

>>24094044
there you go fren, dont listen to wsb retards who blow thousands on buying premium , high number of occurences and high probability trades until you build a good account value
>>24094069
do it bro
>>24094127
we need more details fren

>> No.24094167

I started with options in July and just lost too much money...granted I put too much money on the line. I was just learning technical analysis and relied too much on it, or TA is bunk, or I got very unlucky, or a combination of the above. So: how have you all been successful with options?

>> No.24094209

best way to play options with like 3k

>> No.24094232

>>24094167
what you did wrong is
A. you used astrology for predicting the market (aka TA)
B. You bought premium at the highs and experienced volatility crush, meaning even if you got it right vega would still fuck you over

if you want to be successful, learn greeks, sell high IV and high IVR, sell often and sell with POP over 70%

>> No.24094299
File: 432 KB, 1349x695, Deribit happiness.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
24094299

>>24094149
>we need more details fren
I like longing OTM LEAPS on SPY and mining stocks at turning points like March 2020.
Looking for another dump in 1st quarter 2021

I made some money on the election selling a bear call spread on the VIX then buying it back once the VIX came down.

Checkout crypto options too fren

>> No.24094367

>>24094232
Thanks. So yes. To confirm I was BUYING calls and puts and those were either going in the wrong direction, or the thetagang bros did it right and fucked me. The only time I ever made money was buy selling, which I did a little around earnings. The Greeks I need to relearn, but otherwise some questions: can you define IV, IVR and POP in your own words? (Obviously I need to do more overall research)

>> No.24094391

>>24094299
fren, Deribit options are always overpriced, i aint touching that shit again, spreads are rediculous and liquidity is shit, but suit yourself. Also i hate buying premium and i hate buying LEAP because i simply do not enjoy the game as much. Theta will eventually fuck you over

>> No.24094417

>>24094367
iv is implied volatility
ivr is implied volatility rank (percentage)
pop is probability of profit (delta based)

you need to sacrifice the profits to increase your probabilities, long term its the only viable strategy , i think

>> No.24094489
File: 238 KB, 1080x1920, Screenshot_20201120-212625.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
24094489

>>24093376
UK options anon here. Getting absolutely dicked on my OOTM pm miner calls. Double down now or wait a few months before putting more in?

Also does anyone know of any UK options trading platforms besides IG and tastyworks? They both have some pretty big downsides

>> No.24094569

>>24094489
whats the tastyworks downsides if i may? i think as a euro those two are our best options (literally)

>> No.24094644

Another week, another payday. The gains from writing options make me feel stupid for having a fulltime job.

>> No.24094688

>>24094644
what's your strategy anonfren

>> No.24094780

>>24094644
are you the guy selling mondays upto fridays ? i am currently looking at orats to see if its worth paying to backtest all my strategies

>> No.24094835

Holy fuck, there's finally an Options General. You shits decided to finally do it.

>> No.24094911

>>24094835
i started these generals a few days ago, so far only me unfortunately, hopefully people will start rolling new threads and get it going

>> No.24095147

>>24093812
Let's say, an SYP option, expiring tomorrow, priced for $1.75. Its strike is close to the current stock price, around $350. So delta is about 0.50.

The leverage is (0.50/1.75) / (1/350) = 100. That is, 10000%.

>> No.24095321

what's the risk to reward for buying calls and puts, compared to buying/shorting stock instead? like let's say i know a stock is low and right at a support level at $70/share. let's say i want to risk $100 on calls. first of all, do i buy calls at $70 or at say $80 or $90? how much am i liable to make compared to how much it goes up, like every $1/share it goes up or for every %?

trying to see if im better off buying calls and puts instead of longing/shorting stock, so worst case scenario i lose what i paid for premium but hopefully if im right (thinking of doing monthlies so i've got a decent amount of time) i can make many multiples my initial investment? compared to buying/shorting stock and having to use a stop loss?

>> No.24095516

>>24094688
Well, it starts by owning shares in 100 lots of stable companies like Apple, Visa and so on. Blue chips but not totally boomer tier like Exxon or Ford. I sell covered calls on those of course.

All shares are held in a margin account, so they count as collateral. This allows me to sell puts despite holding little cash. The underlying I choose to sell on are trendy stocks like Pinterest or Etsy, so the exact opposite of the types of stocks I own. The correlation between these is low, which is beneficial.

If I get assigned, which is rare, and my cash isn't enough to cover, my broker puts me into a margin loan. Seeing a negative cash balance feels weird, but this isn't a margin call and not dangerous at all. It's simply a loan you're charged interest on. Luckily I'm with IBKR so the rates are low. I then look to get rid of the assigned stock via ITM calls.

That's the extent of my strategy. I get the benefit of being a fully invested buy and hold boomer and leverage the portfolio to facilitate a theta gang side gig.

>>24094780
No, I have no fixed schedule and am opportunistic in my selling. However, I do focus on weeklies and have these usually staggered out up to 3 weeks.

>> No.24095559

>>24095321
learn the greeks, delta, gamma, theta and vega, that's help you learn how much money you stand to gain assuming you're right with your calls/puts
tl;dr is that delta tells you how much the value of the contract changes per dollar change in the underlying asset, gamma is rate of change of delta, theta is the amount of value lost per day on the contract (this goes up very quickly in the last 30 days), vega is the rate of change in relation to IV
like I said google and read a little bit about them from a dew different places

>> No.24095805

>>24095559
that doesn't really answer my question. you can't ballpark it? is it really that complicated to calculate? this is sorta why i've always just avoided options in general. with stock i just have to call the direction price is going within certain risk limits. i was hoping someone would be able to explain how much more money i'd be making doing the same trades and same risk but with options to show why it'd be worth going through the trouble.

>> No.24095875

>>24093812
It can be a lot but the trade off is that you're not likely to ever get the profits from it. From my basic understandings of options the premium you pay for the option sort of calculates what's the most likeliest scenario for the strike price.
I said this weird but the odds are against you when buying calls, unless something extraordinarily happens

>> No.24095934

>>24095805
We have an options calculator in the description fren, play around to see how it works , nobody here will spoon feed you

>> No.24096012

Anyone can suggest reading on long volatility strategies that Chris Cole is shilling?

>> No.24096036

>>24096012
We have a learn link in the description fren, nno better knowledge center than tastytrade

>> No.24096115
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24096115

There you go frens , hope this helps

>> No.24096167

>>24095934
fair enough i'll check it out. still, i don't think im really asking to be spoonfed i just want a ballpark. like "if you bought a call at $70 and it went up to $80 in a week when the expiration was in a month you'd be up probably around 4-5x what you paid originally" or something like that. that's all, doesn't have to be particularly specific just a general idea of what options trading looks like when you're right by X amount or Y%.

>> No.24096245

>>24096167
Take whatever stock , multiply on x100 of its price , that's you position if you buy a call. Your profit is that ((80-70)-premium)X(stock price X 100) for each call option

>> No.24096283

>>24096245
Sorry fucked up there with the premium , just deduct the premium in the end , it's Friday and I'm drinking

>> No.24096451

>>24094569
You need a US bank account which is a lot more of a pain in the ass to set up than you'd expect

Tastyworks charges 50 dollars for each withdrawal you make from their platform which is excessive

>> No.24096487

>>24096451
Truly the only downside but I don't mind paying 50 bucks for that platform desu , the fees they have already make more sense than anyone else

>> No.24096580

>>24096487
Where did you set your US bank account with? Or are you doing wire transfers?

>> No.24096652

>>24096580
I do transfers I can't have a us bank account as I'm a europoor

>> No.24096683

>>24095805
Alright, let me take a look...

So, your stock is trading at $70, and you think there's nowhere to go but up. Let's check your options (heh):

>Option#1: Buy the stock.
Your usual option would be to buy the shares directly. To buy 100 shares then would cost $7000 - nice easy math. If it goes up to $77, you've made $700 (10% return), which would be pretty sweet.

>Option #2: Buy a call
That's great, but say you don't have $7k laying around. So instead, you buy a call option. Specifically, you buy a one-week $70 strike call, for which you pay $100 in premium. This gives you the right (but not the obligation), at any time in the next week, to buy 100 shares for $70 each. And all for the low low cost of $100!

So, why's that awesome? Because if the stock goes up 10%, to $77, you can execute that option. You pay $7000 for 100 shares, then immediately sell them for $7700, netting the same $700 profits that you would've gotten from buying the shares outright. Except you didn't have to put up $7k like you did to buy those shares - just the $100 premium it cost you to buy the call.

So, with buying shares, you earned $700 on $7000 invested, for a return of 10%. But buying the call, you earned $600 ($700 minus the premium you paid) on an outlay of $100, for a return of 600%.

>> No.24096694

>>24096245
>>24096283
yeah i guess im just gonna have to do more research into it. mainly im interested in buying puts, especially on volatility (like VXX). that shit is rigged to always go down due to in contango, so shorting it is basically free money, the only issue is that you have to be able to account for the margin requirements if something like another covid crash happens again (which is incredibly rare once in a decade shit, but it DOES happen. specifically 2008 and 2020 so 12 years apart there). rest of the time it's free money. i figured buying puts would potentially be safer since if some black swan shit happens my puts just expire worthless, no big deal, no margin requirements to worry about.

>> No.24096744

>>24096652
That costs you a lot of money to transfer in also then yes?

>> No.24096782

>>24096694
That's not the way to do it , but sure read up and decide yourself
>>24096683
What you are forgetting to tell him that the probability of a stock going up 10% is so low that he will probably loose his premium as the extrinsic value of the option goes to 0 at expiration

Also he can't exercise any option unless he has the funds to buy the underlying asset meaning his broker will force him to sell it an hour prior expiration

>> No.24096793

>>24096683
not him but thanks friend this helped

>> No.24096806

>>24096744
Not necessarily, it's the withdrawal that's expensive

>> No.24096879
File: 475 KB, 1663x1651, that last 10 mins tho.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
24096879

>>24096683
thank you this is what i was looking for. nice. one more question: is there a difference between using the call to directly buy the shares and then sell them, vs. selling the call contract itself? or does that start getting into complicated greeks shit? like in that same scenario, could the cost of the contract itself go up way more than if i exercised the contract to buy and then immediately sell the shares? i've heard most people don't exercise the options they just trade the options themselves, idk how true that is though. or is it a wash and they basically have the same effect?

also, what is the value of holding a contract to expiration? i've noticed a lot of times on fridays the price will get dumped just below where the most contracts are. AMD today is a good example of this, they dumped that shit at the end of the day i assume to force all those calls to expire worthless.

>> No.24096935

>>24096782
>That's not the way to do it , but sure read up and decide yourself

well again this is why i've avoided options so far and why they worry me. they theoretically fix certain problems i've come across (especially when shorting) but i worry about the fuckery that goes into the premium pricing and the greeks and whatnot that basically say "you're right on where price is going but you still lose".

>> No.24097038

Best babby first stock to join theta gang with?

>> No.24097038,1 [INTERNAL] 

215K volume on SPY 370c 12/4. Shorts hedging or is something happening next week that'll pump?

>> No.24097289

>>24096683
Con't
(And of course, by the time I've answered, the conversation has moved on, and six other people have covered the same ground. But I'll continue...)

You had asked for both risk and reward, and I only covered reward. So let's see the other side of the coin: how much do we stand to lose?

>Option #2: Buying a call
In this case, the risk is pretty straightforward: you paid $100 for the right to buy at $70. If the price of the share drops rather than rises, even if it only drops to $69.99, that right is worthless - there's no reason to exercise. So you risked $100, and you lost all of it.
Furthermore, it's worth noting that even if the price rises, it might not rise enough to pay for the initial premium. Say the price goes up to $70.05. You can exercise the option, buying 100 shares for $7000 and then seeking them for $7005, for a profit of $5. Great! Except you paid $100 for the privilege, so you're down $95 overall.

>Option #1: Buying the shares
In this case, the risk is a little complicated. Some people will (disingenuously, I think) say that you're risking 100% when you buy shares - if the stock price goes to $0, you've lost everything you put in. That's technically true, but it ignores that the probability of that happening is almost zero. A more appropriate risk analysis would be to note that there's a perfectly linear relationship between the price movement and your losses: for each $1 the share loses, you lose $100.

There's also a second downside to the call: it has an expiration date. So in our example, where the call expires next Friday, it's either worth something, or it's not and you're out $100. If the following Monday the shares shoot up to $75, tough shit, your call's already dead and buried. Shares have no similar expiration - if they stay flat over the next week, you didn't make any money, but you also didn't lose anything. And if you want, you can keep holding it, and if the price goes up eventually, you'll make your money.

>> No.24097630

>>24096806
OK thanks anon, I might try a wire transfer

>> No.24097677

>>24097289
>probability of share price going to 0 is practically zero

Anon, are you retarded? Companies go bankrupt all the time, especially this year.

>> No.24097712

>>24096879
Awesome, glad to help!
>Is there a difference between...
Short answer is 'no', long answer is 'yes'. For practical purposes, once your option is profitable to execute (which is called being "in the money," or ITM for short), it's price will have increased to reflect the money you would make from executing it. So yes, you can sell it back at that point, and make the same money you'd have made from executing it yourself. In fact, that's what most people do, and most brokers will even take care of this automatically for you if you own an ITM call but don't have the funds to execute it yourself. That's also why you shouldn't stress too much about having enough capital to actually execute.

In answer to your second question, about whether the option price could go way above the value of executing: it could, but when it's about to expire, it'll collapse back to the value of executing. Let's use the right terminology: the value you'd get from exercising is called the "intrinsic value." The rest of an option's price is called the "extrinsic value." It's also sometimes called "time value," because the main thing it depends on is how much time is left until expiration. The closer you get to expiration, the more time value decreases, like sand falling through an hour glass. At expiration, it's all gone, and only the intrinsic value tensions.

>> No.24097877

>>24095321
>thinking of doing monthlies so i've got a decent amount of time

probably a bad idea to hold options for long term because time decay will almost certainly kill you.

selling option on the other hand is very risky because of the gamma.

>> No.24097975

>>24096879
you should almost never exercise the option early. There are a few exceptions tho, and that's why American option is slightly more expensive than Europeans style because of the extra choice to exercise early in some cases.

>> No.24098070

>>24097677
You're not wrong, but I did say "practically zero" and not "zero." Also, we're not talking hip new restaurants or mom-and-pop hardware stores, but publicly traded companies. And nobody is demanding you buy OTC pennystocks or something. How many companies in the S&P500 filled for bankruptcy this year?

I'm not trying to diminish the risk of bankruptcy, but it's an edge case in the grand scheme of things. Fixating on a low-probability total loss scenario blinds you from the much more likely risk of a 20-30% correction. Maybe "practically zero" was a bit strong, but "sub-1%" is being generous to you.

>> No.24099018

How do you know if you've been assigned? Do you get a notification immediately once it happens or do you have to wait until the next day to know?

>> No.24099393

>>24099018
Assignments sometimes take a little while to go through, but you'll always see them before open the next Monday. You'll pretty much always know when you're being assigned, though - it's not usually a big surprise.

>> No.24099976

germanfags here? how do we trade options?

>> No.24100565

>>24097038
RKT

>> No.24100930

am i the only one here who trades bitcoin options? it seems a lot less complicated.

>> No.24101160

have 250, what do i yolo on monday for w week long call.

>> No.24101216

where the fuck was this options thread three weeks ago what the fuck