/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>23787414
If you know what you're doing you can assume when to buy low and sell high. However there is some gambling and uncertainty to it, hence hate from the people that don't make it.
At the same time, I don't know wtf I'm talking about, I just hodl btc

Yes, just need a strategy that tells you when to enter and when to exit. Just get one if you can't make your own.

>>23787432
Okay. Say you have a $10,000 account and you use it to make on average $100/day (1$ ROI per trading day). Ignoring upscaling, if you just stuck to this amount of capital and continued this for the roughly 253 trading days per year, you would return 253% annually.

Who consistently makes 253% annually? Can you name anyone? Why is it that Warren Buffett and George Soros have only averaged a 20% annual ROI, and yet they're considered highly successful investors? I smell bullshit.

>>23787512
based and logicpilled. Do tell more. What's your approach to crypto?

>>23787612
No dude, I'm literally a hypern00b to any kind of trading or investing. I don't hold crypto because I haven't even learned how to set up a wallet yet or find a platform that doesn't require one. I'm asking these questions about trading because I'm interested in investing some money I've stumbled into and have heard a lot about day trading, so I wanted to see if these concerns I have are refutable.

>>23787512
Not easy until you get used to the emotions and shit, as well as the discipline to stick to a strategy.

>>23787670
If you can handle 3 years of watching charts for 4-8hrs a day and be ok to lose money for the first 3 years then yes, you can profit from day trading. Every trader(profitable) needs to go through this process. Forget paper trading. Trading is all about emotions and risk management. You need skin in the game. Start small, keep learning and keep calm.

>>23787751
I appreciate the input, anon, but until the questions I've asked are given answers I don't know how I can take day trading seriously as a viable strategy for making money.

>>23787776
You won't find answers until you'll try to go for it. When I've started I had $$$ in my eyes and I was expecting unreal results -> turn $1000 into a million... boy I was so fucking wrong...not a "get rich qucik scheme". Market will teach you a lesson. Only you can decide how much money it will cost you. EVERY trader pays tuition to the market. No exceptions!!! Risk management, self-control, discipline, strategy. Ups and downs, big drawdowns. This shit ain't for weak people bud but in the end is worth and I mean a fucking a lot! :)

>>23787414

Because it is virtually almost impossible to predict the market on a daily basis, so daytrading falls into the category of gambling. You can still be a successful gambler though, you just need to be right more times than you are wrong. Daytrading is not a viable source of daily income, somedays you will get absolutely wrecked, it's like Poker in a way. Long term successful daytrading can be profitable, when you hit the longterm depends on your skill and the amount of time you have traded.

>>23787860
I see what you're saying. It is important to to get real experience of something if you want to really learn it. My concern is that I don't know what to expect enough to even understand why I should try day trading to begin with. The people promising you can reliably turn $500 into $1,000,000 in a year are clearly full of shit, but now it seems like even the people who say you can use $10,000 to make on average $100/day are also full of shit. So if I can't make a good living doing it, why should I get that real experience to begin with rather than trying something more viable?

>>23787941
>somedays you will get absolutely wrecked
This is preventable if you follow strong rules for cutting losses, no? It seems to me like day trading would slowly lose you money over time rather than costing you your ass. There are ways to hedge risk, such as splitting your money into multiple positions and setting a % loss at which you will exit your position no matter how you feel about it.

>>23788034

It is human nature to "chase your losses". You have to be a robot to stomach the losses and keep playing your strategy, aka not be human. As a human, when you lose, and you keep losing, you will naturally change your strategy... when in fact you simply ran into a long chain of bad luck.

>>23788034
Easier said than done (splitting money into multiple positions/setting a % loss no matter how you feel about it). Market is designed to take money from emotional herd. You can't really set a "daily limit for profit". You can't assume that you will make a $100 a day and you will be living of that. Sometimes you make a BUNCH of money in one trade and sometimes you will have a week or month without a single $ profit. That's why is so important no to jump in straight away into day trading, quitting your job and shit. You need at least! Savings for 1 year so you're not stressing about not making money every day. I wasn't so fortunate to quit my job and become full time trader. I've traded before and after work (swing trading is better to start off your trading career). Build your account and take it from there.

>>23788083
>>23788166
People can accomplish all sorts of shit when they are dedicated. Following a strict set of rules for entering and exiting positions despite your emotions can't be harder than being an elite soldier, a celibate monk, or a head of state, and yet there are millions of these kinds of people. I've heard that only about 10% of day traders are profitable long-term, and since human nature is what it is, that's not surprising. However, noting how difficult it is stay consistent with one's rules is by no means a knockout argument against day trading, as there will always be those 10% of people who can do it.

>You need at least! Savings for 1 year so you're not stressing about not making money every day
Assuming I am that fortunate, would you still recommend I start with swing trading?

>>23787414
I've lost around $10,000 day trading.
From what I've read, you have all the theories down, but like everyone is telling you, you won't know how you'll react until you start losing your money.
The best thing to do is to have money you don't care about losing, things get much easier when you're not emotionally tied to your cash.
If you've got rent and bills to pay...good luck.
I hope you have $100,000 sitting around that you don't care about in order to make a living off day trading.

>>23788283

You haven't shown any dedication to daytrading though, it appears you are just looking to make quick money by doing nothing other than clicking a mouse a few times. Successful day trading takes years to develop winning strategies, you are also pitted against proven successful daytraders every day. These are people that are mathmeticians, people so smart that you could only dream about the math/reasoning they use to trade.

So after spending months and months studying/trading, get back to us and tell us how you have performed. Otherwise, stop fantasizing about making "easy money", it ain't easy.

>>23788283
Yes, start with swing. Day trading is hard as fuck for newbies. Less stress with swing. You set orders and wait. Either SL hit or you make money. I do enjoy day trading or even scalping. Once you get a grip is easier to manage price swings on LTF.

>>23788350
>You haven't shown any dedication to daytrading though
I already said that I'm looking for a reason to do that. Read this post:
>>23787512
Then tell me how I'm wrong. I'm not saying I want easy money, I'm saying I want to know if day trading is even worth dedicating myself to. If I can make a living from my computer without having to market something or get connected on social media, I will literally work my hands to the bone to ensure I end up in that position, even if its its just comparable to my last day job in terms of income. So, do day traders really make 253%+ annual ROI, or do you not know the answer to that and yet want to condescend to me on the issue?

>>23788477
How much money can I expect to make if I do it right?

>>23788503

Honestly I would suggest not wasting time doing it, there are far more other ways to generate income that don't require gambling. You could build a business, or learn a skill like programming that is highly sought after.

>>23788516
You won't do it right at first... trust me... I'd love to say to you that you'll be different and you'll start making money from day 1. How much money you can make? Sky is the limit bud once you'll get a grip :)

around 90-95% of retail traders lose money from day trading.
most of those traders are retards who are looking to get rich quick so you can assume the successful 5% aren't the ones who just threw all their money in margin, overleveraged and blew up their account like the rest.

day trading is profitable and potenitially a career option but you'd have to treat it like a job instead of a hobby and like every profession you need to study and learn, if not it'll ultimately be just a pipedream for you anon.
a good free start is BabyPips

>>23788548
I'm going to have to assume you don't know the answer since you've ignored the question so consistently. As to your point though, your advice is duly considered. Now I'd like to see if people on the other side of the issue can convince me otherwise.

I mean as you say, it's a gamble, right? Well nobody wins consistently at roulette. Unless there is some genius who can do that, most people who consistently win at gambling do things like Blackjack, Poker, sports betting, etc. So there definitely are some forms of gambling that provide opportunities to be reliably profitable and some that don't. Trading seems to be one of the do's. However, is that only for the Rainman-type autists who spend all their days gathering and analyzing data, or is the pool of winners more generalizable? I keep hearing that the top 10% are successful at day trading in the long run. If there are about 10 million people day trading, the top 10% is 1 million people. There must be some opportunity for the not exceptionally mathematically gifted in the field. The rules and principles used by the very best tend to become public knowledge over time. This means potential traders have a wealth of information from highly successful genius investors at their disposal. That must (and seems to) count for something.

>>23788577
That's not a real answer. Give me an example of a person who day trades and is profitable in the long term, and how much do they make? I'm looking for some realistic expectation.

>>23788516
10% a day bottom end. 60% a day high end

>>23788734
Give me an example of someone who does that.

>>23788731
i pay to be part of 'true trading group' and the people who live stream hand feed TA and day trades that are 80% profitable.

There was a youtube channel named Quickfingers Luc, he has a nice strat and probably a multimillionaire right now

>>23788757
ok but what does this group trade? fx,low float penny stocks? commodities?

>>23788731
>to us and tell us how you have performed. Otherwise, stop fantasizing about making "easy money", it ain't easy.
How big is your trust fund? now think about risk vs reward. 1% per week would be pretty safe but if you want to take on more risk you could always add leverage and make bigger bets. really just a pointless question until you actually succeed at it, in which case, money wont be an issue.

>>23788716

Try it out, a good starting BR is $50k, most sites won't let you day trade with less than around $20k. You won't learn anything from paper trading IMO. You don't necessarily have to be an autistic mathematician, you do however need reasoning for your trades, and if your reasoning is that you "feel" it's going to go up/down, you might as well just go buy lottery tickets.

And what question did I not answer? Yes, people can make money over the long term. Even investopedia agrees.

>>23788757
Looks like a million other bullshit trading gurus I've come to despise since I've started my inquiry. Why does he need to charge $1800 to poor people who want to become rich if he's so filthy rich himself? Doesn't he supposedly make more than that in a day? That kind of money should be negligible for him. How many people ask for their money back?

>>23788872
The question is how much can I expect to make? I doubt it's 1%/day.

>>23788939

You are support to risk 1-2%, so if you have a $50k account, and you trade $500-$1000 per trade, you will probably make or lose around $100 a trade, it all depends on what stock you are trading as well. Doesn't seem too lucrative, eh?

>>23787670
Gotta read the candles

>>23788968
Again, an average of $100/day for 253 trading days a year is an average annual ROI of 253%. What you seem to be saying is that that's more than reasonable. If I have a $50,000 account, that allows me to bypass the PTD rule that would otherwise restrict me to no more than 5 day trades per week. So I could trade every day the market is open as many times as I want. So if I can make on average $100 per trade and I trade every day, then I could make $100/day theoretically. What you're telling me is that doing so doesn't require making $10,000 trades, but only 10% of that at $1000 per trade. 100 is 10% of 1,000, so you're telling me I can make not 1% per day, but 10% per day. That would be an annual ROI of 2,530%. Who in God's green Earth is making that kind of money day trading? Who?

>>23788808
they day trade stocks and options on the NASDAQ

>>23789070

You misinterpreted me, I said "make or lose" around $100, and that's with good stop loss. So let's say close to 50% of your trades per year are losing, sure changes that 253%

>>23789116
no you bet like 5k of that 50k after looking at the stock

>>23787414
Im an engineer who lost his job in his late 20's and became a swing trader/ day trader with just about 15k in savings.

I started trading 2000 USD and turned that into 3000 with a couple weeks by only going long on stocks and sticking to blue chip stocks that were on fire. After that, I trickled more money into the pile, and now, during these large bull market spurts, I'm raking in about as much as my entry-level engineer job and I'm just getting started.

My strat to make good steps forward is only going long on stock, and don't trade on margin (no borrowing money at all, no shorting, no options, no futures). ONLY long, and you will eventually make it. NO stop losses on companies like Google and Amazon and Tesla, if you miss the swing, you hold and sell it later when it rebounds higher eventually. You can't lose money until you realize the gains, so I don't recommend you touch ANYTHING besides going long on stock until you really understand everything that's going on.

For all you other traders starting out, I advise that you take these words with a bit of gravity. It's helped me alot. Also, in the wise words of another trader:

"I didn't master 5 types of trading until I mastered one of them."

>>23789156

how "long" are we talking? half a year or longer?

>>23788939
i'm gonna give you an answer you very likely already heard before. the reason why no one can give you a solid answer anywhere is because there are too many variables to give a reference. you will have winning days as well as losing days. eveyone here can spit maths at you all day saying if you have "X" amount of starting cash with a "Y%" risk tolerance you would make "Z" amount but the problem with that is it ignores the style you trade, the performance of the strategy you're using and the competency of the trader etc i'm saying there are many immesurable factors that affect your profitablity.

If you want to know where are all the successful day traders are the simple answer is they're all working in proprietary firms where they have the best trading platforms money can buy and get fed news information before others do

>>23789183
>how "long" are we talking? half a year or longer?
A week to two, tops, or until it becomes worth the profit to take it out.

Swing trading is between a day and a week, and intraday trading is between a couple of hours and 24 hours between buying/selling. I swung/intraday traded about 2k worth of Square and sold it for about 400 dollars between Thursday and Friday. Stick to a few really good blue chip stocks and swing/intraday trade those, and eventually you will get better and make more money as you trade only hot stocks. Try and stick to as much blue chip stock as you can, because that way you reduce your risk of losing your money, cause the only way you would be able to is if the company went bankrupt.

>>23789116
Oh my bad. Okay, so if every time you win on a trade you can expect to make up to $100, and every time you lose you can expect to lose $100, then couldn't you employ the stop loss at $20 lost, and exit winning trades at any price after it's showing signs of a downtrend? That would mean you'd only lose $20 on a given trade, but you could make up to $100, putting your risk/reward ratio at 2/10. You might make $50 one day, lose $20 the next, make $65 the next day, lose $20 the next, and so on. However, that's assuming it's even reasonable to expect a 10% gain/loss potential to begin with. Unless I leverage the fuck out of my position, getting 10% trades on a daily basis is nearly impossible because of market unpredictability.

Now, if I made or lost 10% on $1,000 at the 2/10 ratio I mentioned, I could expect to make on average $80 per day. Let's say I made half that at $40 per day average, meaning I'm including all the times I lost $20 and then cut my losses so I couldn't lose more. That is a 4% daily ROI, which is 4x the 253% I brought up. That means if I made $10,000 trades every day, I would be able to reliably expect $400/day for an income of just over $100,000 a year. I don't think you've done the math here.

I think you are failing to conceptualize variance. Go paper trade to see your math fail, also the numbers I am throwing at you are estimates, total amounts can go under or over depending on too many factors to discuss.

>>23789186
Having winning days as well as losing days is the reason averages are employed. So somebody should be able to give me a ballpark average that isn't ridiculous, but so far I'm discovering that even people who think day trading for a living is a pipe dream greatly overestimate potential profits and losses.

>>23789281
I don't think I'm failing to conceptualize variance since I'm incorporating both profits and losses into my calculations using averages.
>>23789293

>>23789293
>I'm discovering that even people who think day trading for a living is a pipe dream
i need to correct my self on my 1st comment. i personally don't believe day trading is a pipe dream and it's certainly possible to make a career off of it, my intention was to say if you want to live off being a day trader you need to be willing to heavily invest yourself in studying day trading and the market for it to become an attainable goal

>>23789403
Well of course. I think I've made it clear that I'm willing to do my research. My calculations in this thread have all been for the purpose of exposing what I see to be as unreasonable expectations from day trading. By no means do I assume this will make me rich quick. I started this thread to see if anyone could give me a reasonable expectation of how much money I could make on average day trading, but so far none of the math adds up on any of the answers I've been given. I understand the stock market is an immensely complicated monster and that serious, verifiable research needs to be done to have any hope of beating the market. What I want to know is by how much can a well-equipped and knowledgeable trader really expect to make annually ON AVERAGE. That means accounting for entire years that are losers and all the potential winners combined.

>>23789457
well best results i could find doesn't have any citations but at
https://mytradingskills.com/day-trader-salary
says avarage annual return for independant day traders is roughly 20%-30% in the US with top 3 biggest traders reaching a $570,000 salary

>>23789457

>whines about not getting random gambling winning totals

Fucking idiot.

>>23789457
Well, looks like no useful information can be found here.

>>23789752
faggot