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I'm of the opinion that dispute resolution has no place in smart contract resolution. programatic contracts should be purely deterministic, if they aren't, then they aren't smart contracts and shouldn't try to be forced into an area they don't belong.
>>20525809what I mean to say is if you can't program logic into your contract to handle edge cases, and get final sign off from any necessary parties (addresses), then it's a dangerous smart contract and you shouldn't be deploying it.
When pigs fly.
>>20525809>deterministic, if they aren't, then they aren't smart contracts and shouldn't try to be forced into an area they don't belong.agreed, the whole resolution thing just seems like cringe larping desu
>>20525809>>20525856Well, if it works and smart contracts can function as a superior backend, then why not?Your subjective opinion on why smart contracts cant be used like is just as stupid as Vitaliks dislike of Chainlink as theyre not 100% aligned with his vision of smart contracts.Your wet dream of whats smart contracts are doesnt matterAnd by our logic you shouldnt even believe in Chainlink as they neither are purely deterministic, a system of oracles might fail no matter how robust
"WE WILL BE COURTS AND JUDGES"hahahahhahaha do you faggots really belive this shit for real?Every crypto project like this will fail 100%, not saying it won't pamp in the next bull run but there are so many other better picks.
>>20525933you sound mad
>>20526134that didn't read like a mad post.
Dyor or do the needful
>>20526340He does to me and other anons have a point. What’s the point of smart contracts of deterministic events are rare? Seems kind of false
>>20525809Incorrect. Subjective data will be huge. Link cannot handle and automate it. Pnk is the next best thing along with many other very useful dapps. >>20525989You sir are a special kind of retarded. DYOR ffs
>>20526421>Subjective data
>>20526414with the absolute state of link at the moment they sure as shit seems to be
The next hype cycle end of 2020 and 2021 is decentralized identity not some faggy ass decentralized subjective arbitration bs
>>20525809>>20525891>>20526414https://medium.com/@gorgias.costanza/the-subjectivity-problem-39bdd2704cb3
>>20526421>Incorrect. Subjective data will be huge.why do you think that? give me a valid use case and tell me why a decentralized version is better...
>>20526487Thanks for proving my point. Pic related is you.
>>20526487Anon you’re literally the dumbest person on the board topkek
>>20526535Read this then ask questions. https://medium.com/@gorgias.costanza/the-subjectivity-problem-39bdd2704cb3
>>20526569But i wont be the poorest since i don't own your curry shitcoin
>>20526421>>20526492>>20526548>>20526569Can you guys at least try to have a serious conversation?>>20526517I know what the subjectivity problem is and it’s usefulness. I’m saying that the deterministic events being rare is false.
>>20526641Kek it nearly 10x’d since February. This is why you are poor. Have sex btw
>>20526517>https://medium.com/@gorgias.costanza/the-subjectivity-problem-39bdd2704cb3okay, but I disagree with whomever it is that wrote that kleros shill. I really don't think there's room for subjectivity in smart contracts. This is my perspective as a programmer. code is logic based language, if this...then this. the 'subjectivity problem' isn't going to be programmed away
>>20526695>ek it nearly 10x’d since February. This is why you are poor. Have sex btwWe can play that game too, and better
>>20526738There’s already active cases happening now as we speak so you’re argument is nullified. Kleroscan.com
>>20526738>This is my perspective as a programmerthe reality of kleros’ consistent success does not care about your autistic perspective
>>20526894>>20526738>>20509871
>>20525989>>20526487>>20526653>>20526738>>20526770WE JUST HIT ATH BOYS
>>20526738>the 'subjectivity problem' isn't going to be programmed awaya platform can be programmed to harnesses economic phenomena from its users in a way that guarantees just resolutions in disputes dealing with subjective data on the blockchainthis is what kleros does, and it does it well
>>20525742Personally, I'm all in.
>>20526894but I think it's stupid....what don't you understand? why should I trust a random group of pajeets to decide the outcome of my 'case' when there are reliable outlets for me to handle my disputes? there's no way I would want a legit contract to be handled in this way. can you even imagine. these cases are pretend shit and play money. it's not real. if I had an actual business contract with someone for a significant amount of money, no fucking way am I going to lean on kleros to make sure I get paid.
>>20527008>>20526990are you guys staking towards the upcoming dispute? whats your opinion?https://omen.eth.link/#/0xffbc624070cb014420a6f7547fd05dfe635e2db2
>>20527024Whatever you’re saying is stupid and won’t happen, is already happened. Expand your mind so you can better grasp the concept anon.
>>20527024PREDICTION MARKET DISPUTES.
>>20527038i’m a juror baybeeeeee
>>20526990it doesn't guarantee just resolutions and the ruling is final. that's a problem in the real world. also, last I checked, which has been a while I admit, everything on klerosscan was fake or test data. literally all the cases were initiated by the same handful of wallets and all jurors are the same addresses in almost every case. still, all this talk and nobody has given me an actual legit use case as an example to shill this.
>>20527059happening*
>>20527038I'm not anon, there's a juror discussion telegram chat though, i joined today. I think they might be discussing it there. If you're interested, tell me and i'll post the link
>>20526770That graph's a little outdated, as I'm sure you know. PNK did a lot better than LINK in the last year; PNK is the new coin of KEK.
>>20527106The information that you need has already been posted. Let me post it again. >>20509871
>>20527064prediction markets have a clear outcome. >did Trump win the 2016 presidency or notthere's no dispute. TRB as an oracle is designed to handle gathering this kind of OBJECTIVE data into smart contracts. there is no subjective data dispute.
>>20527146zoom out
>>20525856Part of handling edge cases is handling disputes to resolve it. It's impossible to resolve disputes completely deterministically because the world exists outside programs, there has to be a 3rd party somewhere to say who wins the dispute, otherwise someone acting in bad faith will always just dispute anything that costs them. As long as both parties agree to the method of resolving that dispute then the smart contract is perfectlys fine.I haven't looked into how kleros works, but I imagine as part of resolving disputes you'd have to have an identity of the people resolving disputes, as well as a reputation tied to them as well. Does kleros do all that or is that a fifth/sixth problem?
>>20527114nice. you got a link?
>>20527181clearly that is not true, because someone literally paid 35 eth to dispute the market
>>20527152where is the subjectivity? >Will there be a day with at least 1000 reported Corona death in the US in the first 14 days of July?the answer to this question is clear. you don't need a 'court' to settle a subjective dispute, you need a reliable oracle that can feed data into contracts that don't rely on a certified API.
>>20527240not sure why the tweet says 32 - it was definitely 35 eth.
>>20526738Why not? We are arguing semantics at this point. It's different needs for different purposes. Consider something like fiverr. Yes, you could easily program in simple conflict resolution like "if customer isn't happy then reject payment". However, the problem is that as you explore more complex cases, code is only as good as who programs it. So let's say I send out something I was commissioned by. I argue it isn't a turd and I worked real hard on it, but the buyer says that it isn't what he asked for. A smart contract system may not capture the fact that the buyer is a turd burglar. So, the platform defers to kleros. Maybe these things could be captured in code, but not all platforms have the need or ability to get down into the bricks for something when the cheaper solution may be to leave it to human input that can smooth out interference. So, it goes to a Kleros court, and it finds in favor of the seller as the buyer was indeed being a turd burglar. This is the general principle of kleros and why it can have a future together with chainlink. Writing bulletproof contracts costs time and money. It serves as a catchall for anything you don't ask code to do for one reason or another. >But that's not a smart contract! Based on what? There isn't exactly something like a turing test for smart contracts unless I'm mistaken (and I love to be mistaken). And even if it isn't a smart contract, it's still a practical way of conflict resolution that I think can have a place in a truly decentralized finance way. Hell, kleros X Monolith could be good. Let kleros courts decide if a chargeback seems valid. Sorry for Reddit spacing I'm mobile posting which is much worse
>>20527268well, i suggest you educate yourself on the dispute vs browsing it at face value. CLEARLY there was a good enough reason for it, that someone paid 35 eth to initiate the first on-chain dispute resolution case
>>20527240that's fine, I get that kleros is a thing....I think it's stupid though and it's not going to win in the oracle war. someone paid 35 eth to get this data into a contract..... let that sink in.
>>20527268>the answer to this question is clear. you don't need a 'court' to settle a subjective dispute, you need a reliable oracle that can feed data into contracts that don't rely on a certified API./thread
>>20527212here it is frenhttps t . me /klerosjuror
>>20527320because they would profit 12 or 17 eth if it rules yes or invalid. do more research. they wouldnt do so unless they thought they had a case. this is the whole point of kleros
>>20527364Yep. It's the same reason you aren't suing your friends for that 10 bucks he said he would pay you back.
>>20527364you've missed the point entirely. it should not cost 35 eth to bring data into a smart contract, and with other solutions, it doesn't. kleros is retarded.
>>20527106> it doesn't guarantee just resolutions and the ruling is final. that's a problem in the real world.dyor on schelling points and how kleros is designed to exploit them> also, last I checked, which has been a while I admit, everything on klerosscan was fake or test data. literally all the cases were initiated by the same handful of wallets and all jurors are the same addresses in almost every case. case 302> still, all this talk and nobody has given me an actual legit use case as an example to shill this.reread this fucking thread
>>20527414>reread this fucking threadmaybe you should, because the only use case mentioned has been btfo already.
>>20527320This is where you are assbackwards. Link and pnk oracles are for different uses. They aren’t competing and actually need eachother to completely solve the oracle problem.
>>20525742You fucking idiots are reinventing the wheel.
>>20527402you fail to see the bigger picture.omen -> realitio -> kleros35 eth is required to incentivize 500 randomly selected jurors, unless you have another alternative.
>>20527322Oh look here’s the dumbfuck of the thread acting like he knows anything. If you are so smart then why is someone paying over $5k for kleros to dispute for them. Literally get with the times or Kys faggot hahahahahaha
>>20527483I wasn't talking about link, but trb. link uses certified api feed. trb doesn't. it's better at pulling in data like this for prediction markets. miners vote instead of jurors and it doesn't cost 35 fucking ETH per call.
>>20527456>the only use case mentioned has been btfo already.how about uniswap.ninja, a version of uniswap that only hosts erc-20 tokens verified by kleros jurors?how about any of the dapps running on kleros?
>>20527456"btfo" by someone too autistic to admit they are wrong is not really something to worry about, imo
>>20527496Smooth brains wouldn’t understand. See you at $1
>>20527514>If you are so smart then why is someone paying over $5k for kleros to dispute for them. Literally get with the times or Kys faggot hahahahahahaLMAO dude that means nothing, there's people paying more for a literal whore turd.KYS
>>20527523All you have to do is understand the difference between objective and subjective data. You need to DYOR because you’re clearly misinformed.
Already did back in March. I’ve almost 2.5x’d my investment
>>20527536hey retard, I understand that reading is hard for you, but let's try again..... >>20527320I get it....kleros exists. I don't think it's current iteration will survive into the future though. there are and will be better alternatives than this garbage. it's still early enough in the smart contract revolution that shit like this still exists...
>>20527568It’s one fucking case you absolute tard. There are over 300 cases netting nearly $600k for the users already. Jfc please do yourself a favor and run into oncoming traffic
>>20525742Creating a problem and "need" that didn't exist in step 3.Garbage project that won't get past big business analysts and is designed for midwit crypto normies who buy in to marketing speak
>>20527627>than this garbageHahahahaha hahahahahaha yeah DYOR you fucking retarded faggot haha hahahahaha my fucking sides the absolute state HahahahahahahahahabaThanks for the hearty kek soiboi
>>20527641All the data you have given in this tread is subjective, so IT MEANS FUCKING NOTHINGKYS RETARD
>>20527672Next time at least try using believable fud. You obviously has no clue what’s going on.
>>20527679so is kleros trying to be an oracle that supplies objective data?, or a court that disputes subjective elements between parties? you're pretending like they are the same thing throughout this thread...they're not.
>>20527691HAHAHAJA you said there’s no such thing as subjective data now you say there is. Hahahahaha hahahahahaha fucking literal retard hahahaha fucking shit man
>>20527733Sorry to insult your coinfu, but there is no demand for this. Why would a business pay for dispute resolution after automating a contract?
>>20527760It’s for subjective data, the fact that you’re even asking is a red flag. Do more research.
>>20525742What a garbage. Kleros is not even revolutionary.
>>20527798>no demand Kleroscan.comGet absolutely BTFO homo
>>20527798Because not all contracts are suitable for automation. Also, can be cheaper to defer to kleros than to spend the time and money to get the contract FULLY automated.
>>20527840Thanks for this great input anon. ATH as we speak
>>20527775>you said there’s no such thing as subjective data now you say there isSubjective data isn't reliable data, unreliable data isn't fit for contract resolution, you are your pathetic curry court can't make unrealible data become reliable so kleros is shit.
Reminder that chainlink also processes "subjective" data and inputs it to the blockchain. Salty nulinkers clearly have no idea what they're investing in.PNK IS THE NEW LINK
>>20527818>Will there be a day with at least 1000 reported Corona death in the US in the first 14 days of July?the answer to this question isn't subjective data. we're past the first 14 days of july and there was a day with more than 1000 corona deaths reported. this is objective data....what don't you understand?
>>20527504>35 eth is required to incentivize 500 randomly selected jurors, unless you have another alternative.Is it possible to reduce the cost and reduce the number of jurors? For smaller transactions/disputes I imagine there's no need for 500 random people.
>>20527915subjective data is, did jeetsing complete the website I requested in a way that was satisfactory and deserving of $5....he says yes, you say no. thats a subjective dispute and it doesn't belong in a smart contract.
>>20527851For the service of dispute resolution in automation.Not for the speculation of big business wanting the coin some day.Why do businesses want disput resolution on an automated contract? This should be easy to answer.Except you can't, because Kleros can't either.
>>20527971absolutely! see for yourself:https://resolve.kleros.io/create/lowest arbitration cost is about .21 eth for 3 jurors
>>20527971Yes. Many cases have 3 jurors.
>>20527911OMG HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAThis is the exact reason why kleros exists. Thanks for blindly agreeing with the concept you dumbfuck topKEK
>>20527971If I recall, then it only increases if you reject an outcome and want a retrial. I think this one is a meme trial, but you would have smaller courts before jumping to the big court.
>>20528020>doesn't even address the argument that curry court can't turn unreliable data into reliable data.You are a legit retard.
>>20527983You’re wrong because it’s happening right now so you’re utterly btfo and your opinion is disregarded. Codefags think they know it all but wouldn’t know what to do with a pussy if it pissed in their face.
>>20528087That’s what jurors are paid for. Please tell me this is all a troll. You can’t be this retarded. You understand nothing lmao
>>20528087Subjective != unreliable, i heavily diss agree. Kleros is a way of processing subjective data in a fair way.
>>20528087Lol wow anon you are fucking braindead
>>20528114...>>20527320
>>20528145>>20528148>>20528186Subjective data is unreliable because you don't have the means to prove if it's real or not.I could say my leg hurts and no one could verify it to be true or not, i don't care how much jurors are paid, they have no clue is it's real or not, so the data is unreliable.Kleros pajeets are fucking retards.
>>20528015>>20528041>>20528019Thanks this is actually incredible, I'm a developer and I've long recognized the need for a dispute resolving platform in crypto, didn't realize one was already so far along, there's no doubt in my mind that this is one of the building blocks that's needed for decentralized apps to work.
>>20528214they paid 35 eth to get 500 jurorsyou can have as few or as many jurors as you want, the cost scales with the number of jurors you absolute silly autistic freakthe fact that they paid 35 eth is extremely bullish for kleros, it means they have enough trust in the platform to be willing to put that much money inthat’d be like me trying to shit on LINK because someone paid a ton of money to become a node operator and saying that’s a bad thing
>>20528295You’re the anon that was too stupid to see past the intentional indian fud. The people acting like indians were the ones accumulating. You don’t have the brainpower to understand this. You saying “kleros pajeets” automatically shows how misinformed you are about this. Let’s not forget this is shiller by vitalik and being held by many link whales. Check etherscan if you don’t believe it. You probably don’t know how to anyways. Goodluck kek
>>20528295You send me a package. How does the smart contract verify the package contents are correct
>>20528295Jurors are penalized if they don’t not act rational. I guess you have no clue what game theory is. You’re so worried about it stealing the shine from the link when in reality they both need eachother. But you don’t know this lol. If only you knew the grants and awards kleros have one, you’d think differently.
>>20528301>I've long recognized the need for a dispute resolving platform in cryptofor what reason? I've yet to see anyone offer an explanation that made sense. how is there any improvement on existing centralized alternatives? even dark markets found a better way to make this shit work that doesn't cost 35 fucking eth by simply using vendor reputation as a reliability measure. what problem do you think kleros is going to solve?
1-3 massively reduces business overhead 4 adds business overheadhmmmmmm
>>20528427won*
>>20528417kek. how does kleros verify the package contents are correct? jfc, the absolute state of this board....
>>20528463Thanks for the posting most retarded comment in this whole thread
>>20528428Kleros solves the subjectivity problem. >>20528463WE AT ATH RN KYS LOSER HAHAHAHAHAHHA
>>20528493it's unironically one of the simplest observations and absolutely correct.
OOOOOOOOOOOO >>20528463The overhead of 4 may be less than the cost of developing a complex smart contract. Simple as
>>20528489By making jurors put up THEIR OWN pnk to help arbitrate. if you’re wrong, you lose. Game theory, look into it.
>>20528489Other anon nailed it pretty much. The only data available is UNRELIABLE data from other parties as has been put in this thread. The smart contract isn't smart enough to parse out a damaged package or a box of shit.
>>20528548>By making jurors put up THEIR OWN pnk to help arbitrate. if you’re wrong, you losefuck how does it feel being to fucking dense?you didn't answer the question, how do the jurors know what items were sent? they don't fucking know. the end.
>>20528548explain to me how random juror have any idea what you sent to me in a package and what I found when I opened it? explain! how the fuck does kleros arbitrate this? as I said, dark markets have already come up with way better solutions to this problem. how fucking dumb would you have to be to try to program a smart contract to release payment when a package is delivered and the contents are verified.....if that's the best use case you can come up with....yikes.
>>20528489Example: a case opens about the contents of a smart contract. In order to participate and arbitrate, you need to put your own pnk up. If you have a brain, you understand that you better know your shit dealing with this matter or else you will be penalized and will lose your pnk. There are different courts pertaining to different matters. When you make people risk their money, rational thought increases 10 fold.
OOOOOOOOO WE JUST KEEP GOING UP I WISH I HAD MORE THAN A SUICIDE STACK
>>20528493>>20528509It should be really easy to refute.Why do businesses need dispute resolution in automated contracts again?Why would they leave the outcome to bunch of blockchain randoms when they would, in reality either -A. Only offer completely automated contracts that cannot be disputed after signing B. Get lawyered up, which defeats the purpose of Kleros in the first placeThis project is like getting a horse to tow your brand new fully functioning Model T Ford, uneccessary and backward
>>20528607>The smart contract isn't smart enough to parse out a damaged package or a box of shit.exactly! and for this reason payment should not be programmed into a smart contract. now we've come full circle. as I said originally, >>20525856
>>20528621Ahahhaha here’s this retard again. The jurors are given all the evidence in the case just like it would be in judicial courts. This shouldn’t be a surprise to you. Actually it probably is cuz you’re dumber than a box ofRocks lol
>>20528636THEYRE GIVEN ALL THE EVIDENCE IN THE CASE!!!! WTF IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?!?!?!?! You’re not a forward thinker, it’s blatant.
Kleros is King. Bullrun confirmed.
>>20528657...anon...how the fuck are jurors going to know what was in the package?
>>20528702>The jurors are given all the evidence in the case just like it would be in judicial courts.hahahahhaha ok retard
>>20528684Or rather, putting a horse in your Model T because you're so used to it being in the picture
>>20528774You’re being too literal. This isn’t for amazon prime you cuck.
>>20528792>doesn’t post a valid comebackLiteral ape kek. We’re at ATH and you’re fudding nothing hahahahaha fuck this feels amazing thanks for this anon
>>20528731evidence, so like, the guy who sent it takes a picture of the box before he seals it up. all the contents are inside. the guy who received it takes a picture of an empty box..... now what? you see how retarded this is yet? someone is lying, but you're jurors have absolutely no idea who. nobody is going to be using this kind of smart contract retard.
>>20528684You don't need to Reddit space, we read your post. >A Because they are interested in offering a defi product that can't be programmed without a lot of effort >BBecause lawyers are Jews and this can be a cheaper way to resolve said conflict.>>20528694If the payment isn't coming through a smart contract, then you aren't solving the problem smart contracts are aiming to solve. Fuck, eBay has people they pay this shit for. And that's healthcare benefits, salary, and whatever else shit they do this for. Work that isn't necessarily important to be done in house. This is the way to let said smart contract operate AUTONOMOUSLY. Why the fuck would I want a half measure?
>>20528835any person with half a brain can see you were the one that didn't provide a comeback, the jurors have no means to turn subjective data into reliable data.
>>20528835So why do businesses need dispute resolution in automated contracts again?
>>20528893They get awarded ETH.....
>>20528860ebay does not cost me hundreds-thousands of dollars to dispute the contents of a package....that's why people will continue to use it over your dumb ass example of a decentralized marketplace.
>>20528922Idk, check kleroscan.comMaybe you’ll get a better idea.>>20528840>nobody is going to use it. Hahahaha okay buddy
>>20528937>They get awarded ETH.....that doesn't mean anything you fucking clown, giveing money to someone doesn't grant them with the superpower to know if some subjective data is tru or not.FUCK YOU ARE FUCKING STUPIDKYS
>>20528951how much money does ebay pay pajeets yearly? And this isnt even about eBay you’re being too much of a normie faggot rn. Stop looking at everything like a consoomer
>>20528684>A. Only offer completely automated contracts that cannot be disputed after signingbecause A. there will be many instances when programming a completely dispute-proof smart contract is more expensive than arbitrating on Kleros and B. because in an instance like case 302, people can be retarded with how they write smart contracts.>B. Get lawyered up, which defeats the purpose of Kleros in the first placeno, the idea that businesses should default to traditional arbitration defeats the purpose of blockchain smart contracts to begin with. why would a business use a smart contract at all if there was no on-chain method of dispute resolution? you’re a narrow-minded retard and your perspective is a detriment to blockchain as a whole, not just kleros
>>20528985right... nobody is programming smart contracts to release funds on delivery. nobody is doing this.....nobody is going to start doing this either. might be time for you to leave the basement anon, there's a whole world out there. you seem to be quite tunnel visioned on imaginary uses for a solution that's still in search of a problem....
>>20528993HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHABAHAHA you’re made because users of pnk can stake pnk and get paid in eth. In what world isn’t this a great idea? In your lonely virgin world that is HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA thanks for this anon. I’ll see you at $1. On dam new ATHAgain!! Fuck yeah hahahahaha Kys weirdo
>>20528922why do businesses need automated smart contracts?
>>20529044Kleroscan.com should help get you started.
>>20529070>still haven't addressed the problemhahahhahahahhaa
>>20528428Imagine a decentralized uber, at best you can verify gps data (but even that can be spoofed/disabled) that the person got the ride. If someone says the driver didn't show up, and the driver says they waited for 10 minutes, how can you resolve that?You can't do that easily, so you have your dapp request both parties upload their evidence, i.e. whatever gps data is available, a video showing 360 degrees around the pickup spot, and then send it off to a bunch of randoms to decide who was lying.A centralized service could solve that function, but why would you want to pay all those employees to work 24/7 when you could just delegate it to randoms and pay them per dispute resolved? That's a ton of less work and absolves you of any extra responsibilities and costs.Now, I do think that 0.21 eth for 3 people seems pricey, I imagine if you had a case that could be solved in less then a few minutes, a bunch of randoms would be more than happy to get paid $1 per case and you can bake it into the cost of using the dapp.
>>20529028I used to buy shit off silk road way back in the day. they didn't pay anyone to resolve disputes obviously..... guess what? a simple reputation system was all that was needed to ensure you were gonna get what it is you wanted to get. too bad we didn't have kleros back then to solve all our problems and charge us 10x to prove it in a decentralized court.....
>>20528860>Because they are interested in offering a defi product that can't be programmed without a lot of effortNot a good use of smart contracts, nor cost effective. Reducing overhead and streamlining sales and fufillment channels creates profit margin, "smart" with non automated roadbumps will be dropped quickly >Because lawyers are Jews and this can be a cheaper way to resolve said conflict.>>20529089But still leaves the outcome in doubt. Businesses will pay through the nose to avoid losing any dispute once it goes to this stage.
>>20528993Anon please, you’re only digging yourself further Into a hole. You have showed that you do not have the wits to understand the concept that is pnk. Which is why you missed the ride from $.006 to $.055 in the last 4 months. You’ll realize soon, don’t worry, I’ve been there before. We all have, do some research and get some good friends. Godspeed
>>20529089Reduces 90% of employee overhead. Easy.Your turn. Kleros can't even explain why.
>>20529185Cool. Kleros can reduce legal overhead. Your turn, why do you suck dicks?
>>20529167>still not a word about jurors being unable to turn subjective data into realiable data.
>>20529153>hurr look at me I’mSo cool I use Silk Road look at me beleive me anons trust me I know everything that’s why I didn’t buy the token sale and 8x my money! Yeah kleros is good but I’m retarded so I will miss out on this like many other things in life
>>20528893You're all missing the fucking point -- you and the pajeets. The point is that its a way of giving legitimacy to subjective data. NOT EVERY TRANSACTION NEEDS KLEROS. >but it makes it a dangerous contract No shit that's why kleros is the way it is. If you don't accept that, then that's fine. That's your problem. >>20528951 Kleros doesn't cost YOU hundreds of thousands of dollars. At any of these cases, it would cost you pocket change at best. However -- dispute resolution costs larger entities much more. If you told me I could pay someone 16/hr plus bennies to resolve shit, or I could pay 10 dollars to resolve a conflict and see similar results, which do you think is better? >>20529155Not a good use for smart contracts? That's you pushing your views on defi onto smart contracts Game theory addresses the rest of that post, but the reality is that its no more in limbo than any other lawsuit. I don't expect to see thousands of copyright lawsuits or shit performed in kleros.
>>20529215I already explained it, if you didn’t see it then you’re even more retarded than I thought. Now let us 10x in peace topkek just know you’re fudding a 10x in The last 6 months
Why and how will enforce the decision?
>>20529212Can Kleros guarantee 90% win rate for you?Or is it totally fucking random chance with no ability to swing the case in of your favour with a lawyer?Can you refute well thought out criticism of your coinfu without grade school insults?
>>20529280>I already explained ityou didn't explain anything, you just said they get ETH, that doesn't explain how they turn subjective data into reliable data.KYS
HOLY FUCK ATH AGAIN!LOOK AT THE FUCKING VOLUME!!AHHHHHHHHHH WERE MAKING T BOYS
>>20529143this is an okay example, but still...we're just talking about needing a reliable oracle, not a court. the decentralized uber could/should use gps data feeds to confirm that the ride was given. that's objective data. even if it wasn't the cost of an uber ride does not justify the cost of a kleros court case.....you're literally paying more to have your money sent back to you if you were ripped off in this example anyway.
>>20529331By being rational humans Risking their own money if they fuck it. Look into game theory then ask questions
>>20529302usually a smart contract. the contract uses the kleros decision as the 'final answer' for the dispute that the contract initiated. good use case example is how the omen market escalated past realitio and now is on kleros
>>20529215You’re literally too autistic to understand the answer. You’re also too retarded to do your own research. Would you like a link to a 300 page document written by the Kleros team about how jurors are incentivized to come to rational verdicts? Here you go:https://ipfs.kleros.io/ipfs/QmZeV32S2VoyUnqJsRRCh75F1fP2AeomVq2Ury2fTt9V4z/Dispute-Resolution-Kleros.pdfHow about a one-pager that explains it? Here you go:https://kleros.io/static/onepager_en-3165e4676c4ed1529064608a83967c23.pdfOf course, you will read neither of these, because you’re seething over missing out on an easy 5x and will continue to miss out on an easy 20x because you are too autistic to understand economic principle beyond the laws of supply and demand that dictate the endless 700k LINK dumps at the hands of your obese glorious leader.
>>20529366>By being rational humans Risking their own money if they fuck it.HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAwhat does being rational human beings even means in this context, if i say my leg hurts being rational or being give Eth won't give you the superpower to know if that is true or not.No wonder you bought kleros you are a fucking brainded idiot.
>>20529465>no wonder you 8x’d your money, you’re a fuckin idiotLol this is too fucking good
>>20529276If big business doesn't pay through the nose for Kleros then how can you get a 100x or more on the token then?Ultimately, that's why we're here. As a unique little crypto project concept, its neat. But the demand and therefore token price rise isn't there.That's why there is so much conjecture, not just fud itt. Link had the same thing, but has big biz application, hence alll the continued 1keoy.
>>205294848x is nothing, haven't you seen the Defi pumps, sucks to suck i guess
>>20529465You’re past the point of help. Look at every one of your responses, they make 0 sense. Your English is also fucking terrible so I’m not surprised why you’re this retarded. Keep spewing literal shit from your mouth and ass as we keep climbing the ranks. It’s inevitable.
>>20529351A reliable oracle is never guaranteed, cellular connections can be spotty, services can go down, reception can be bad, things happen. Sure maybe it could be used as a layer above the decentralized dispute resolution, but if any data is missing we still need a way to solve a dispute.I agree cost is a problem here, I'm not sure why the costs are so high for the existing cases, but it seems like a good solution if prices can be set to anything, I haven't dug further into it yet to see if that's possible maybe other anons can chime in and answer.
>>20529485It is the million dollar question. But the price isn't set just by something arbitrary like 1 kleros for dispute sir. Its dependent on the value of eth and dispute value. So then the price there is driven by people who are holding and staking for cases. I don't really have a solid vision for price, but this doesn't need to moon to accumulate in value. I mean really, why does anything increase or decrease? All about circulating supply.
>>20529366>look in to itStop getting mad. If Kleros is a sound investment, explaining why should be easy
>>20529324Can any legal team guarantee a 90% win rate for you? Are businesses infallible? Kleros is not a magic tool that guarantees your victory in a dispute. It is a dispute resolution platform. There will be a roughly equal amount of winners and losers in cases (in terms of parties involved in contracts) with a handful of contracts deemed invalid. Whether YOU win a case depends on the clarity of the evidence you put forward, just the same as in traditional arbitration. This is not programming magic, this is a faster and likely cheaper method of arbitration compared to the arbitration processes of companies like eBay, that are LITERALLY, UNIRONICALLY, FACTUALLY ran by PAJEETS already.
>>20529613so let's say kleros rules in favor of one party, what stoping the losing party from going to a real court since you have NO legal basis whatsoever to rule anything?
>>20525742>14 posts to defend a scam coin.
>>20525742What's the PNK suicide and make it stacks?
>>20529609it go up
>>20529613>Can any legal team guarantee a 90% win rate for you?Yes. Or at the very least show 90% or more winning record in that field of law.No one will pay for a "50/50, probably"
>>20529609If you haven’t got the point by now then I’m not wasting my time with you. Check that graph though. I’m beyond comfy and been in since $.005 so it is what it is.
>>20529587the court used by the dispute arbitration caller (can be a contract) and number of jurors determine the arbitration fee. for example its .07 eth reward for coherency iirc for the general court. multiply that by 500 and you get 35 eth.
>>20529613Also, flipping a coin or a round of rock paper scissors is cheaper too.
>>20529728the contract that says arbitration will be handled through kleros
>>20529728>let’s go to a literal judicial court for a small smart contract issue Again, another braindead response.>>20529738>scam coinTell me why
what is the incentive for pinkies to vote in the "correct" manner?
>>20529728Retarded question, you can dispute the ruling as many times as you like to draw an entirely new jury composed of 2x+1 jurors as the previous jury. Legal team not needed.
>>20529789Ok so no use case. I 100x 'ed on roulette once, that was fun too.
>>20529728also what the fuck would the law do about virtual money in a trustless escrow contract lmfao
>>20529831They get paid in pnk and eth.
We token sale buyers bitch
>>20529831their stake gets slashed. for high-stake courts like the upcoming #302 case, a commit-reveal scheme will be used so jurors can vote privately w/o people being able to snoop on-chain w/ kleroscan. the disputes that show up on kleroscan are either low-stake or have already past, hence the vote data is available and on-chain
>>20529832So pay to win if you have more eth to spend?Oh my
>>20525742Cardano makes all of this irrelevant When the time comes, PNK will migrate to Cardano, screencap this. ETH 2.0 won't be fully released either when this occurs.
>>20529865>no use case Kleroscan.com should help get you started. Thanks for making this so easy.
>>20529875That doesn't answer the question. If you're saying they get a reward for voting in the same way that the majority ends up voting, then that's not good because it just causes a situation where people vote not based on what they think is true, but based on what they think the majority will say.
>>20529884>>20529831*stake gets slashed if they vote incorrectly.
>>20529905>t. newfag in his first cycle
>>20529924there is a 3 day evidence period minimum for parties involved to submit evidence. are you saying you don't agree with the concept of a 'silent majority'?
>>20529587it costs so much because you are literally paying for jurors time. all I know is if I were to program a decentralized uber, dispute resolution would need to be considered and handled as best as could be from the app itself. if both parties are needed to click 'yes ride was given' after a certain amount of time, and there are conflicting inputs....the winner goes to whomever the gps data agrees with. if there is no gps data, the winner goes to the payer. also, as has already been said, the reputation system on these kinds of apps has already proven to be an effective way of evaluating the trustworthiness of the person you're about to do business with. still haven't heard a legit use case for kleros yet that I can actually imagine being a thing....
>>20529927That doesn't make sense though. If there is already a correct/incorrect, then there's no need for a jury. What you're saying is recursive.
>>20529924You can appeal. Also, read this then ask questions. I’m sick of misinformed faggots that have no clue what kleros actually is. We fucked you guys sideways with our intentional indian fud. Sorry but you better get in while you can.
>>20529790Thanks, that's unfortunate how high it is, are there less expensive courts? Or can you make your own and set the rates? I imagine for something like a decentralized uber you'd want to do .005 eth per juror, and it doesn't seem feasible if it costs .07 eth.Although around these low values the cost of transactions starts to pile on too..
>>20526493>decentralized identifyWhat’s this, anons?
>>20529980This.200 replies 0 irrefutable reasons for adoption
>>20529990>subjective data with a need for human input blocks your path
>>20530038Check kleroscan.com, that should help you get started.Here’s a 300 page paper as wellhttps://sys.4channel.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fipfs.kleros.io%2Fipfs%2FQmZeV32S2VoyUnqJsRRCh75F1fP2AeomVq2Ury2fTt9V4z%2FDispute-Resolution-Kleros.pdfLet me know when you’re done being a faggot. Topkek
You have to be braindead to see this coin being developed since 2017, have a legit team, be shilled by Vitalik and many core ETH devs, get two European grants worth over $1m, have actual usage going on on the chain with the current cases pulling in ~$10k *per case* and STILL not be all in thisI mean this is literally what Link promised to do, but you can actually do it. You do know this actually has staking RIGHT NOW that can give you income based on your decisions?Like you can literally work this today, like chainlink promised for 3+ years. How are you all so gullible? Did you actually think that “pajeets” use this? Did you really fell for funny picture memes fud?Jesus Christ
>>20529924Anon this is basic game theory actually.
>>20526738>> I really don't think there's room for subjectivity in smart contracts.Want to know how I know you didn't even read the article? He literally describes multiple cases that are impossible to program away.
>>20529782you realize we’re talking about arbitration, right? as in, kleros is doing the same thing that a company like eBay does internally when buyers and sellers on their websites have disputes? it sounds like you’re under the impression that kleros is meant to handle criminal law or something
>>20529980>it costs so much because you are literally paying for jurors time. Yeah and for a dispute that would take a 3rd world pajeet 2 minutes to resolve, the cost doesn't make sense. They would be happy with $1, it doesn't make sense to cost ~$16. Even in a 1st world country, if I was still in college I'd be thrilled to bang out a few disputes at $1/each so I could eat lunch.>the winner goes to whomever the gps data agrees with. if there is no gps data, the winner goes to the payer.And when the gps data agrees with both parties? What then?Look, if you don't solve this problem then some nefarious actor will enter the scene and spoof gps to fuck with all your drivers and they'll eventually quit from not getting paid. This is why having a dispute resolving system that works is important, you can't just rely on whatever data is available and hope for the best.
>>20530187But if it's just for consumer arbitration then where is the influx of cash coming from to increase token price?
>>20530305Um....speculation?
my vilage is able to eat now.. a new tuk tuk too. life is Good,
>>20530305Consumer arbitration.Turns out that market is fucking massive. Pic related. Source is from the one-page Kleros explainer I posted earlier.
>>20530151Explain game theory simply. I know exactly what it is, but if you need to link an article or deflect with dyor, you don't, and can't explain Kleros' use case or demand.
>>20530390Finally some fucking rebuttal.
>>20530390Also not to mention that kleros can efficiently exist outside of smart contracts if it came down to it
>>20530412Let’s say you intend to meet someone in London, but you didn’t agree on a specific place or a specific time to meet. Where would you go and when?If your first thought was something along the lines of “Grand Central Station at noon” or “Picadilly Square at noon,” congratulations, you now understand both Schelling points and Kleros’ economic mechanism that guarantees coherent votes from jurors.
>>20530488how would that work?
>>20525809This. The situation in OPs pic is what real courts are for. Kleros not needed
>>20530519Well explained.The question was for Kleros buzzword Eddie Bravo though.
>>20530412>>20530412It’s called the schelling point. In a multi-round game where all participants need to agree on a decision and the number of participants grows with each round, the schelling point, I.e. the answer the majority reaches consensus on, is the closest to the optimal decision of the system, given that there is an option to dispute the decision by providing a larger group of players the next round.Basically, if you can keep asking more and more people the same question, the answer the majority ends up giving and not disputing is closest to the most optimal answer. If it weren’t, the next round with a larger group of people would give a different answer, which would end up becoming the actual schelling point.The edge case for this in game theory is a true 50-50 split of answers, which never happens in practice because that’s just not how real life and math works.
i'm imagining the pain that you all will feel when pnk hits 30c knowing you're priced out.it brings me power
Kuh Le Ros
Should I sell 0.4 Bitcoin for Kleros?
>>20530533Lot of ideas are far fetched atm but many real world companies could plug kleros into their system and have kleros handle the disputes and resolutions. eBay, PayPal, Amazon, and the likes. It doesn’t necessarily need crypto to be successful, to be successful. All of this is unlikely but if it did happen, kleros can handle it, all things considered.
>>20530541You couldn’t be any more incorrect. That’s why you missed the boat. Great going anon! Great fud btw
>>20530673I'm imagining the fomo as they push us from $1 to $3 in a matter of days.
We done it I am richest in city my toilet is now porcelain
>>20531126No
>>20525742This is the first time I've seen this graphic. I get it. Don't see why Kleros should win the role over any other. On the other hand, ChainLink has crumbs and partnerships out the ass.
>>20531439based
>>20531474First mover advantage, just like chainlink.
>>20526641Seethe more cuck
>>20530027Idena, its pretty cool
>>20531474It is needed. LINK and Kleros are two different sides of the same coin. You need both. The value of Kleros will more so come over time and lies primarily in the precedence, legally speaking- think case law, that it will create which can be relied on in the future for faster and quicker, perhaps even automated dispute resolution.
The whole point of crypto is decentralisation. This gives you a system that transcends borders and legal jurisdictions. If crypto ever has mainstream adoption, you will need some form of subjective judgement system, otherwise you'd just be trusting the person who wrote the smart contract, and if you're doing that, you might as well use a centralised company, thus negating the point of using crypto in the first place.Kleros has an advantage in that it's far quicker than traditional courts, it's cheaper, there's less risk of bias, and because people are forced to vote with the Schelling point they actually pay attention to the evidence.
>>20532247Well-said. Kek blessed you with a new ATH. See you at the citadel
So uh, there's 1.5bil in disputed defi money1bil pnk tokensSo that's $1.50 per pnk if -They capture 100% of the marketThe ratio of disputed $ is 1:1 with pnk usd priceAll for a capped 30x in a highly unlikely best case scenario.Enjoy the lil pump there pinkies, us big boy tokens are looking at the bond and insurance markets
Dug a bit more into this, it seems retarded they don't use a stable coin.Onboarding | Min Stake = 1000 PNKEach vote has a stake of 100 PNK.For each coherent vote you will receive 0.01 ETH +So right now that's ~$60 to join the court and $6 to vote. Imagine trying to crowdsource this and expecting your users to front $66 the first time they use it so they can get $2. And to continue to stake $6 each vote so they can get $2 or more.Even more silly looking at their other courts..Marketing Services | Min Stake = 14000 PNKEach vote has a stake of 4550 PNK.For each coherent vote you will receive 0.1 ETH +That's $900 to join the court, $260 each vote, so they can get $2+Just seems insane, I can get behind needing users to stake but the stake cost to reward ratio is all over the place. As it is now anyone that wants to use their platform faces a ton of risk because of price volatility. If you stake 14k PNK to join a court, and price drops 20%, you just lost $180, and for a price of entry that's very high.
>>20532381>all for a cappedKys for being this retarded
>>20532392People thought the same with link back in 2017. Crypto needs to catch up to kleros.
>>20532429Then explain how the market cap of the token can realistically exceed the disputed $ amount in defi and stay that way.Nobody will pay $30k in pnk to resolve a $1000 dispute
>>20532463From your posts in this thread, you don't actually understand what you've invested in
>>20532526You’re assuming crypto stays the same size. The only reason we care about crypto is because it’s new and frequently undergoes huge growth spurts.
>>20532463Huh? I don't see how that's related to link. My concern is the needlessly high cost of entry and risk, especially for new users.It seems like that wasn't considered when they did the tokenomics, instead it looks like they went the more users -> higher token price approach, without considering that higher token price -> higher price of entry and higher risk for jurors.I'd like to be wrong here but as I understand, that decision means long term adoption and price growth are at odds with each other.
>>20532613Sure, but 5% of defi is disputed. Kleros would need 100% of that now to break $1 for a 20x. It would also need the tokenomics to cost significantly less than the disputed amount or the whole thing falls over. Which limits the price growth for PNK holders.Other defi tokens that court big business do not have this economic restriction, like insurance or bond markets paying millions out the ass for Link to get data to validate their contracts.
In case you guys didn’t know, the cost of entry can be reduced by the governance voting mechanism. This is a non-issue long term
>>20532780He doesn't reply to intelligent posts.
>>20532802>current crypto disputes being small means kleros is useless>crypto disputes are the only possible usage>present market cap is relevant when investing in a growth area
>>20532840all this work you've done in this thread trying to fud. you'll buy in at $1. people like you always do
>>20532381There’s 760 some million tokens max limit, not 1 billion
>>20532203>>20531564Odd yet apt that kek blessed me with a link-themed ID. I take this as a sign from Saturn.I see a pnk uptrend starting since late June. Assuming this is just general defi hype as I don't see any major news or catalyst short of maybe kucoin. Thanks for the info, enjoy your (yous).
>>20532946-No, just token price growth limited by disputed amounts. -So far, that is all Kleros offers, gl crowdsourcing arbitration in the old world when consumer affairs, actual legal proceedings etc exist.-the market cap of pnk cannot exceed the disputed $ value in defi. In fact, it will need to undercut it significantly if Kleros is to be the cheap option.Let's say you're disputing $10kWhat's the most you would pay in usdto get Kleros to arbitrate?
>>20532983Yes you're right, my mistake.
>>20533205Depends on how many jurors you want
>>20525742There is no game theory here, voters are encouraged to vote with the majority, minority voters are the ones who get penalized.
>>20532837Thanks that's good to know, seems like a slow way to adjust things though, especially with the volatility tokens can have.
>>20533245Okay, dodge the question, but you want to win and get your $10k.What's the most you would spend?
>>20533380How does my personal cost-benefit analysis of a decision I will never make affect either your point or mine?
>>20533514Ok, I'll spell it out for you. I thinkyou know the answer already and don't like it.The more you're willing to spend, say $5k or 50% of the disputed amount, Kleros stops being the cheap alternative.The less you're willing to spend to cut costs, say 10% or less, the demand for the token goes down, as does the price and you don't get your mad gainz on your pnk stack. 10% spend on a disputed amount results in a token price of Kleros at 20c, if it 100% of the disputed cases in defi right now.It's lose-lose for pnk holders, but pretty nifty I guess for consumers on defi