/biz/ - Business & Finance

>owning
>no private property
choose one

>>19979552
It's called comission, but only really offered in sales

The coming communist revolution can be averted by a cap on lifetime earnings (disguise it as a a tax or whatever) and UBI. Universal Medicare would be nice too.

>>19979552

BECAUSE IT'S NOT THEIR VENTURE YOU STUPID NIGGER

DID THEY RISK THE STARTUP CAPITAL? NO.

DID THEY HUSSLE THE FIRST CUSTOMERS, THE PRODUCT-MARKET FIT? NO.

YOU HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA HOW BUSINESS WORKS YET YOU PROPOSE DRASTIC CHANGES? OF COURSE EVERYONE IS GOING TO THINK YOURE FUCKING STUPID.

>>19979552
that statement is axiomatically flawed, workers don’t create surplus value

in a developed economy labor is an insignificant part of the value equation. labor is effectively worthless. Communists should realize this instead of dogmatically insisting the opposite

>>19979786

>labor is inherently worthless

Except for all those businesses that were hurting because they couldn’t get workers to show up these last few months.

>>19979552
The answer is explained to you in convenient cartoon format, perfect for your intellect. Watch Animal Farm.

>>19979771
Nobody risks startup capital, dipshit. At least not any that they own.

>>19979715
A cap on incentive is merely a disincentive. The problem is the bottom whatever% are dissatisfied with their inability to compete.

As a nation we either:
1. Help them become more competitive (bring in better jobs, better education)
2. Distract them by legalizing vices and/or throwing peanuts at them
3. Eliminate their population through prison, war, disease

Generally in the US the disenfranchised move to liberal areas and self-enslave with drugs and promiscuity. Fuck that up and the mob gets unruly leading to 3. The only way out is reestablishing 2 or long term providing 1.

Fixing entitlement mentality and essentially low skilled workers is through education and morality, or some great purge.

>>19979810
non essential business doesn’t create value either

>>19979838

Good to know you think manufacturing doesn’t create value

>>19979854
“value” is a nonce concept to begin with, just like the LTV

>>19979771

Once again truth prevails. If the worker earns his true wage then what incentive does the entrepreneur or leader have to start up an idea? None.

Without growth, without new ideas and businesses you have NOTHING. There would be no roads, no buildings, no vaccinations, etc. And without that a society withers and dies.

>>19980038
I get what you're saying here, but you're speaking in absolutes which is pretty dangerous. Of course workers should be compensated but perhaps not directly by their employers. All workers have a right to live a life not stacked against them (environmental waste products, law enforcement corruption, corrupt lobbying against those in need in favor of the ultra-rich). Also, what about commission?
Also I seem to be missing something, are you guys OP, because his statement is verrry vague and you >>19979771 both seem to be verrry certain on what exactly OP is talking about given his question?

>>19979572
>no private property
He didn’t say that

>>19979837
I dont think it's entitlement to not want to pay near a quarter of your monthly pay because you may get sick, outside of pandemic conditions of course.

>>19980137
“surplus value” is a sideways label for arbitrary state-mandated capital distribution away from the capital holder, it’s very clear what OP wants

>>19979552
If the business runs at a loss for some period, does that mean the workers should pay for it?

>>19980137

Rights are just an enshrinement of leverage into law. They don't exist unto themselves, despite the language of "unalienability" found in various historical bills of rights.

Unions are certainly one way to increase your leverage as a worker.

But workers have been getting screwed since the early 1970s, as the rate of return to capital relative to labor began to accelerate. This was technological.

Those returns very rapidly found their way into regulatory capture that ended up destroying unions in order to benefit free trade designed to maximize efficiency in global capital flows.

This is just a part of the cycle of history. Eventually capital will eat itself, sociopolitical instability will come to a boiling point, and the returns to capital will be distributed amongst the masses following whatever revolt or war results.

>>19979552

First of all, I'm a fan of mutual insurance companies [where customers are also stakeholders] and employee owned companies [like winco here in AZ].

However commies deserve to be thrown from helicopters.

>>19980242
>Eventually capital will eat itself, sociopolitical instability will come to a boiling point, and the returns to capital will be distributed amongst the masses following whatever revolt or war results.

>it’ll happen guys I swear!!11

>>19980196
Nah, above average productivity. When people dont perform up to your standards, you eat the cost or fire them, pretty simple.

Fuck workers lmao
I serve the machine god Capital exclusively

>>19980255
yup. they're called employee owned companies and nothing is stopping commies from running them.
but they refuse to because they're all lazy leeches, who just want to be the commissar who profits from the "co-ops" but isn't actually an employee himself

>>19979771
>says the half-kike great-grandson of some wealthy jew businessman who got his startup capital from the local elders of zion and papers from his cousin on mainstreet

you are a hack and a poser, pay your fucking workers

>>19979552
Thou shalt not covet.

>>19980137
Op here, "surplus value" is just what I kept seeing twitter commies say in arguments. I'm not actually in support of it myself lol, im just shitposting and wanted to start a discussion.

The way I see it, you get paid based on the market and what you're willing to work for, hence why salaries for higher level jobs are negotiable. If you don't like it, you can start your own business; the reason the firm profits off you is bc as someone else said, they're the ones who started it and are risking the capital.

Ofc capitalism's not perfect though; unregulated it often leads to monopolies, then there's also corporate lobbying, etc.

>>19979552
Why don't the workers just use their wages to buy ownership of the company?

>>19980334
>reeeeeee

>>19979552
>doesn't understand how flawed planned economics are
>instead rants about fairness, like a woman
Try to get a passing grade in high school economics, brainlet.

>>19980186
Instead of demanding that others pay for you, why not focus on growing your personal economy so the cost is negligible?

>>19980242
While I'm sympathetic to your analysis, I hope we can grow our way out of this. But ultimately forcible depopulation may be what (((they))) want though I can't imagine even with New Zealand bunkers they'd want total collapse, just hypnopopulation control (gays, trannies, childfree, etc).

>>19979837
Legalize heroin for medical use(depression) at a sacrifice of rights. Then repeal the law as a savior once it's done too much damage to degenerates.

>>19980296
This but unironically, I realize you are probably a lefty tard with no understanding of economics or wealth creation though

>>19980137
Maybe some kinda of variable percentage of a products profits should be able to be siphoned as a tip to the direct workers, but it would have to be offset by the option to dip into their standard wage to tip the business owner unfairly(by your definition) if the customer chooses.
I think my business will just rely on automation if communism takes over

>>19979552
If the left and the right would look past their differences, they would realize that they have more in common with each other than they do with centrists. The left vies for communist government because they hate capitalism. The right hates communism for the same reasons that the left hates capitalism. Usury. In capitalism you are a slave to the bank. In communism, you are a slave to the state. Only through national socialism can we find the true middle path. Eliminate interest on loans.
In addition to agreeing on economics, the left and right also agree on funding issues. The right hates taxes, while the left hates the military, so we find the middle road by reducing military spending and cutting foreign aid. The left hates "Russian bots" (the media) for getting trump elected. The right hates the media in general. We find a common ground by systematically interning and then deporting all journalists, while also dismantling all media companies, opting instead to have major events broadcasted in their entirety with no subversiveness, no trick editing and no agenda pushing, presenting only the facts and allowing people to come to their own conclusions.
There are so many things that both the left and right agree on, but are kept separate by lies pushed by the media, bankers, Hollywood, etc. And as soon as everyone realizes we all agree, we will be able to move past minor differences, and enter a new age of prosperity.

>>19980582
my post was in no way ironic

>>19980591
cuck

>>19980137
>>19980590
The problem here is that it's easy to say everything should be "fair", but everybody has different opinions about what that means. Systems compete and those that are most stable naturally emerge and dominate.

Working to "keep people happy" simply makes you a slave to their grievances instead of working to create the conditions for happiness, economic and technological growth. Otherwise social safety nets have to come with mandatory population controls, and nobody actually wants forcible sterilizations, one child policies, and uptick in capital punishment.

>>19980138
>what is communism

>The coming communist revolution can be averted by a cap on lifetime earnings (disguise it as a a tax or whatever) and UBI. Universal Medicare would be nice too.

>>19980717
>nobody actually wants forcible sterilizations, one child policies, and uptick in capital punishment.
speak for yourself.
problem is only stupod savages ate breeding. the only way to save this world os to sterilize them

No one is stopping people from all becoming entrepreneurs.

So why don't people?

>>19981619

I've asked my parents and older sister why they never invested, the answer was unanimously "I've never had any money!"

>>19981786

most people don't.

If you don't think you are being paid enough for your labour then just don't go to work, then the business will collapse with no workers. The problem is globalism not capitalism because if you won't work they just import some chink to work for $5 an hour or they send their business overseas.

>>19979552
they don't create excess without someone forcing them. That someone needs to be able to earn their excess or it's just not worth the bother

see also: the fall of communism

>>19981916
>then just don't go to work
A little oversimplified but fair enough.

>>19979552
People don't understand that communism only functions as it's supposed to if everything produced is scarce. Furniture, appliances, cars etc.. This heavily adds barter as a form of trade system embedded in their trade system based on currency. Every person who supports barter in present day is a communist. The system collapses when a communist society tries to remain communist, but tries to produce more so products aren't as scarce and more people have access to them. The only way to do this is by producing things of shit-quality. They produce things just to produce thing, with no intention of producing those things to last. If a communist society gets in too deep, they collapse by producing shit that eventually becomes the fabric holding their society together. Soviet Union was the first lesson. Attempting to create nuclear energy plants to compete w/ America, but also producing them cheaply w/ too many risks/errors as their only way to compete. We all know how that ended in the Soviet Union. China is the second lesson. They played a dangerous game of building up too fast thinking America could not make a come back. This is true until Trump was elected. He's exposed everything. Now that the world has two choices, China's infrastructure is crumbling faster than it was built. It was a classic Soviet Union 2.0 scheme.

>>19982264
General strikes work for a reason

>>19979771
I have a MBA.