/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>19560848
cardani is bettr than the aspirations for ETH 2... which won't be completed for 2-6 yeats.

tech doesn't matter

nobody cares
I'm buying gold synthetics on uniswap right now

>>19561118
I don't care about the tech, only the sweet gains Charles has made me this last week

so ETH 2 is only 33% byzantine fault tolerant at best --- jesus

gougen is going to take this up to the 50 cent range

mETH bagholders have no response to this, curious

>>19561414
mETHeads faggot are delusional bagholders who think ether will reach 10k one day

>>19560848
ETH is spaghetti code and solidarity sucks ass

ETH is a dead man walking

>>19561482
you haven't heard the news anon?

>>19559254

>>19561223
VB having second thoughts

>>19562218
Delete this

>>19562218
so vitalik wishes he was building Cardano. even vitalik thinks eth is fucked

>>19560848
>>19561223
wrong, cardano is less secure than ethereum, and is lying about its security.
The reason it's 2/3 is because ethereum is relying on the rational actor security model:
consider a finality reversion attack with 2/3 of active stake validators before the attack.
The only way to reverse finality is for >1/3 of previously active validators to create slashable votes + 1/3 of previously inactive validators to vote.
That's why the security of Casper FFG is 1/3 of the locked stake.

Ouroboros relies on something called 'honest majority' which just means it assumes a majority of stake is always honest. That's literally it. The protocol breaks if that's not true, there's no slashing, and even if it were, the cost would be infinitesimal (because of the 50% requirement for finality - so you only need a tiny bit above it).
It's complete trash.

>>19562478
>That's literally it.
your brain on mETH just because mETH devs are not able to understand the Ouroboros paperS doesn't mean you get to pretend that your mongloidian idiocy is true

>>19562543
cope, go back to gurgling Hoskinon's peer reviewed cock

>>19562478
>rational actor
>rational majority

>honest majority
>honest actor
So basically the same, only ETH is 33% and Ouroboros is 50%?

Joke aside; the honest majority is in the old version, Ouroboros classic. Then came Praos, and latest is Genesis.
https://medium.com/@undersearcher/how-secure-is-cardano-5f1e076be968

>>19562644
>ansolutely seething.
you mETH dev incompetents cannot even digest the ouroboros papers, much less publish robust criticisms of your (((findings))). face it, you pathetic philosophical social media larpers are wholly outclassed and outgunned. stock to the leddits. fickin' KEK

Yeah, its over for ETH. V2 isn’t going to launch as planned and Charles has played and now won the long game.

>>19562721
Honest majority means you assume a majority is honest. There are no direct financial penalties over that - so if you were able to hedge ada value via eg. an option, attacks are riskless once you control more than 50%. This a good protocol for permissioned blockchains where an attack has legal consequences, not for decentralized networks.
Casper's security model relies on a direct cost of attack - at least 1/3 of stake gets slashed.
>Joke aside; the honest majority is in the old version
that's only possible for synchronous protocols (assumption that all nodes are online), but what this means in practice is that the protocol stalls if even one node is offline. Which is why cardano has to rely on the honest majority assumption - ie. hoping nobody ever attacks it even if it's profitable for 50%+ of the stake to band up.

>>19562721
>Joke aside; the honest majority is in the old version, Ouroboros classic. Then came Praos, and latest is Genesis
here have a pro-cardano source:
>Since the ‘update’ of the protocol to the Genesis version, Ouroboros is the first PoS protocol that is mathematically proven to guarantee persistence and liveness in both a synchronous and semi-synchronous setting — under the assumption that a honest majority participating
>honest majority
https://medium.com/@undersearcher/how-secure-is-cardano-5f1e076be968
of course, the subsequent part it being magically safer than ethereum is not true, it doesn't even make sense. You need 2/3+ of stake to revert finality in ethereum, 1/3+ only allows you stop finality.

Finality reversion security: 2/3+ in ethereum, 1/2 cardano
Attack cost (in tokens): 1/3+ in ethereum, 0 in cardano
Finality stopped for hours (liveness): 1/3+ in ethereum, ? in cardano
not sure what they specifically mean by 'semi-synchronous' and I don't care enough to dig in, 5%?

Cardano is not suitable for the decentralized setting because of no attack cost - ethereum is literally infinitely more secure, and under the honest majority assumption ethereum is more secure by 1/3 (2/3 vs 1/2).

>>19563008
>and under the honest majority assumption ethereum is more secure by 1/3 (2/3 vs 1/2).
ok that's not a very correct sentence, scratch that 'honest majority' part
should be just
'1/3 more of stake required in eth to stop finality compared to cardano (2/3 vs 1/2)'

>>19562878
>>19563008
>>19563067
Where'd all the cardanofags go? Thread suddenly became awfully quiet.

It'll pump up to shelly launch then we dump. (June 30th and July 7th.)

>>19563008
Big, big BS buddy.

Some systems (e.g. in Casper, Ethereum’s suggested PoS protocol) have proposed that this problem might be solved by freezing the staked coins and punishing nodes by slashing their coins if malicious behavior is observed. While this may dis-incentivize nodes from acting maliciously, it also limits honest participators’ ability to spend their coins and potentially even puts honest participators’ coins at risk of slashing (e.g. in case of a 51% attack, which in Ethereum Casper’s case would be a 34% attack).

PoS protocols use alternative methods (e.g. local moving checkpoints or Byzantine Fault Tolerance), but these only work in a synchronous setting where nodes are always online, which is an assumption that is pretty much impossible to hold in a real-world setting. In the Ouroboros Genesis paper, the authors even conclude that none of the currently existing PoS systems can realize full ledger functionality in the same way that Bitcoin does in such a setting.

Since the ‘update’ of the protocol to the Genesis version, Ouroboros is the first PoS protocol that is mathematically proven to guarantee persistence and liveness in both a synchronous and semi-synchronous setting — under the assumption that a honest majority participating, just like Bitcoin. Hence, it is more secure than other PoS protocols that require at least 2/3 honest participants (e.g. Ethereum Casper, Algorand) and equally secure as Bitcoin, but with a much lower energy expenditure and better performance.

>>19563725
you didn't write any argument, only repeated previous assertions, but it's simple to cut the bullshit:
does a 50+% attacker lose ada when he generates and publishes a conflicting parallel chain? No
does a 2/3+ attacker lose eth when he generates and publishes a conflicting parallel chain? Yes, at least 1/3 of the total stake

comparing cardano's PoS to PoW is absurd, because in PoW every attack has a cost due to mining, so how can a costlessly attackable cardano be as secure as bitcoin? Bitcoin is similar to Casper in that, except slashing penalties are orders of magnitude higher than the energy expenditure needed to attack PoW with equivalent block rewards.

>>19560848
when smart contracts on mainnet? 2022?

>>19563822
You have no clue what Cardano is.
The whole developement was about translating BTC POW into POS.
And i have no time and no fun to guide you through all 62 academic papers.
But Cardano is open source - check it for yourself .
They ship every week about 2k system relevant commits, so you can spend a lot of time researching Cardano .
Problem:
The code is so magical and ellegant, not even ETH devs understand it.
https://cardanoupdates.com/

>>19563957
>The code is so magical and ellegant, not even ETH devs understand it.
The Rust code or the Haskell code?

>>19563822
By the way - try to get 50 + 1% of ADA supply.
How much would it cost (pushing price higher) and how long would it take (liquidity)?

So, after 3 years of accumulation and spending billions of USD you have nothing better to do as attacking the chain and crash your own investment?

And Cardano could even fork too.

>>19564018
Haskell