/biz/ - Business & Finance

Why does transactions per second matter? I've never had any problems with with bitcoin, it's shitloads faster than anything else aside from random shitcoins with high transaction speed from sacrificing more important things. Compared to the old system like bankwires and cards bitcoin wipes the floor with them. A few minutes to an hour vs days upon days. 1mb blocks are perfect and I would fight against anyone trying to change it. Why make a good system shitty on purpose?

>>18833894
based
redpilled

>>18833894
/thread

>>18833894
just to add i recently sent a wire for 40k$, i needed to fill 2 pages of information and paid like 150$ in fees, took days to transfer. Luckily im out of almost all fiat except what I need for about a year of expenses

OP is a faggot. He will stay poor forever.

>>18833847
>STILL being salty about s2x

>buy gold, it's shitter than BTC in every respect!

lmao

>>18834410
I think it was derisive, but worded poorly as op has poor writing skills. He is implying only newfags and retards buy gold

>>18834436
No i wasn't

>>18834650
Oh, ok
So you were lying and trying to cause people harm then. Just know there's a special place in hell for your kind.

>>18834410
Wrong

>>18833894
>bankwires
Every fucking time these idiots talk about fucking bankwires as if bankwires are anything at all like a digital cash system. It's all just cope because they're in a fucking scam that does literally nothing of value because there is no ability to facilitate trade with it at scale. Bitcoin is a fucking joke. It had its chance to be money, failed miserably and will NEVER recover. The damage is fucking done.

>>18834410
except btc isn't real

cryptoniggers are invested since so long in their talmudic ponzi scam they completely lost touch with reality, pretty pathetic desu

>>18833894
Paypal is instantaneous, bank transactions are too if i cross a mark which costs me 50ct
To make bitcoin useable you'd need a paypal like 3rd party service

You basically w

>>18835276
>To make bitcoin useable you'd need a paypal like 3rd party service
LMAO
M
A
O

The absolute state of Bitcoin in 2020.

>>18833847
i'll take store of value anytime going to $100k then $1 million

fuck using a currency plenty of other shitcoins to use for transfer of payment.

>>18835293
Tell me how to buy bread with bitcoin if i have to wait for hours just for the baker to receive a transaction
How could it possibly replace fiat?
It works as drugmoney because the ammount of drugs ordered are a fraction of the total purchases worldwide

>>18834264
>>>18833894
>just to add i recently sent a wire for 40k$, i needed to fill 2 pages of information and paid like 150$ in fees, took days to transfer. Luckily im out of almost all fiat except what I need for about a year of expenses

yeah,
send the amount of 40k$ in btc from A to B
until it arives in 20 minutes, the value is only 30k$ worth it
absolute stable and useable

>>18835314
ever used a card newfag?
whens the last time you traded gold for bread?

im boomer enough to remember faggots like you claiming "hurr durr plastik isnt monys"

>>18835293
>>18835314
>Bitcoin can't be held in self-custody AND used with a 3rd party service!

>>18835314
>wait for hours just for the baker to receive a transaction
It's so fucking awful now when it use to be practically instant. I'm so sorry you never got to experience it.

This thread is one giant buy signal. Literally everyone in this thread is missing the forest for the trees, like most people.

>>18833847
>Always remember - 1MB blocks can only sustain around seven transactions per second.
1MB blocks prevented DoS attacks just as Hal Finney predicted. You have no idea what you were talking about stfu.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=946236.msg10388435#msg10388435

>>18835468

For Bitcoin, yes

Gold will have a bull run too, it will just be nothing compared to BTC's gains

>>18835383
You are the boomer here
Bitcoin with hours or days of transaction time would be like a check, the most booomer way to pay ever
Instant transaction is clearly king in a world as fast as ours
Just think about wanting to buy some stocks and then having to wait a day for the stock exchange to accept your deposit
>>18835388
It can, exactly like PayPal
>>18835395
Instant transaction bitcoin would be wonderful i guess
Maybe with a function to shorten public keys into something more memorable

>>18835276
Neither are instant and both are easily used in scams. Bitcoin is faster, impossible to scam with, and scales just fine. What is with the weak bitch arguments lately? Next people will act like bitcoin starting with the letter b is problematic and why it has failed. At least try to come up with a real reason. Like it's difficult to use with an iq below room temperature, or that it's too easy to get ctrl v and ctrl c mixed up so it takes a few minutes to get the address copy and pasted right.

>>18836065
Both systems are based on a trusted third party and work in daily life for the enduser
>The paypal scammers are mostly buyers claiming never to got orders in case of paypal, in that case the seller sits on the cost
>not a single order i payed for with paypal was a scam
>my ec card takes some time and can be locked if stolen, in that case possible retailers sit on the cost
>only legit scamway is to scan the card + the code with a fake automaton, but only limited ammount of money on that account
>dunno about credit cards, think they are scam anyways
Copy and pasting an adress from the store cashier system?
I dont want to use nfc with others peoples devices, boomers would NEVER use it, every cashier would basically need to be refitted for QR scans

>>18833847
2 BTC, 2 oz gold, 60 oz silver. Literally unbeatable. Fuck off OP

>>18835622
Paying fees prevents DDoS attacks. It's a primary feature of Bitcoin. If you attempt to "spam" Bitcoin you literally just make it stronger.

>>18835997
>Instant transaction is clearly king in a world as fast as ours
>Instant transaction bitcoin would be wonderful i guess

>>18835314

Crypto is a network of networks. If you want to buy a house, use bitcoin. If you want smaller payments, use something like litecoin or another more localized alternative. Most chains support atomic swaps these days anyway.

>>18833847

I buy gold, not bitcoin, for three reasons.

1) Bitcoin is too volatile to be a store of value. It pumps and dumps regularly between $3000 and $10,000 without making lasting gains. It has done this for three years now. The fact that Bitcoin dropped 60% when the stock market crashed shows that it is full of speculators and gamblers, not people who seriously believe in it. Gold didn't drop like that. It showed strength when everything else fell.

2) The BCH people, as you say, are at war with the BTC people, saying that BTC is a technologically primitive scam. They are probably right. The BTC people say similarly injurious things of BCH. They are probably wrong. BCH, ridiculously enough, has its own hard fork in the form of Bitcoin SV. Even Monero is said to have serious problems, like perpetual inflation, inevitable government crackdowns and high fees. The whole crypto-space is in absolute chaos.

I have a little bit of money in Bitcoin just so that I can sell it after the inevitable pump, but my real crypto hedge is in Monero and Bitcoin Cash. If crypto does actually succeed then it will be one of those two coins, not Bitcoin. However, even their success is not a sure thing.

3) Gold has intrinsic advantages over crypto. For example, somebody can torture you for your crypto keys, but nobody can torture you for your gold bars held in a Swiss vault. Again, if I send a transaction on GoldMoney by mistake, I can have it reversed, but if you make a mistake in crypto you are completely finished. You can also do real things with gold, like make jewellery, or use it for important industrial purposes; and it has 5000 years of history behind it.

>>18836389
>Bitcoin Cash.
Shifting protocol with small blocks.

>>18834410

Bitcoin is proven to break down and have enormous transaction fees once it gets even to £20,000 a coin. It does not fulfil Satoshi Nakamoto's original vision for cryptocurrency, that the poorest person can be his own central bank, and make transactions instantly and virtually free of charge. It has been compromised. Bitcoin has become a moonboy cult, and you get censored if you criticize it even in the slightest degree.

>>18836328

The entirety of europe already uses nfc

>>18836389
> I stay poor, not rich for three reasons.

>>18836403

The fees are only related to the volume of traffic, the price is completely arbitrary

>>18833847
Daily reminder, '17+ fags opinions are worthless.

>>18836399
>>18836438

I have no idea whether you're right or wrong, but the fact that intelligent people are daily arguing about this shows that crypto is not a safe haven.

>>18836429

all these dismissive posts, here and places like Reddit, make me bullish as fuck. it's staring people in the faces AGAIN, for a THIRD time, and they still just do not goddamn get it.

Bitcoin is going to shock the world again, the hordes will FOMO in again, and they will get dumped on -- again. True believers will walk away with their wealth.

It seems unbelievable. But here we are.

>>18836727
And the retards will blindly invest in altcoins once Bitcoin and crypto is alive again. It's going to be deja vu from last time.

>>18836727

I agree that BTC will pump, which is why I own some; but this really is the last time the scam is going to work. It already failed to prove itself as a store of value after the stock market collapse. Now it has to prove itself as a hedge against inflation during an economic depression. When it dumps this time, the con will be exposed, and that will be it--you will never pump Bitcoin again. When Bitcoin gets sufficiently high I am selling everything and going all-in on the GDX and GDXJ.

>>18836727

I agree that BTC will pump, which is why I own some; but this really is the last time the scam is going to work. Bitcoin already failed to prove itself as a store of value after the stock market collapse. Now it has to prove itself as a hedge against inflation during an economic depression. When it dumps this time, the con will be exposed, and that will be it--you will never pump Bitcoin again. When Bitcoin gets sufficiently high I am selling everything and going all-in on the GDX and GDXJ. I will keep some BCH and XMR as an insurance policy for the success of crypto, but that's it.

>>18833894
It's obvious you weren't here in 2017 and you also have no ability to reason logically with the future. Your position is only relevant if you expect bitcoin to remain an irrelevant little ponzi for retards.

>>18835224
Ironically imo the most convenient way of buying gold is to pay with BTC

>>18836389
>Even Monero is said to have serious problems, like
>perpetual inflation
The inflation schedule can't be changed on a whim like fiat and that is the key point. Monero's tail emission enables the adaptive blocksize and provides predictable mining security in the future. Bitcoin's terminal emission schedule is actually very stupid but of course satoshi was just launching an experiment so I'm sure he didn't think about it too much.

>inevitable government crackdowns
The whole point of cryotocurrency is that no one can shut it down. If governments could stop it they already would have, just like they did with the Liberty Dollar and Facebook's Libra. Government's best option is to legalise it in a way they can tax it.

>and high fees.
The fees are really low, look it up.

>>18837066

>Bitcoin already failed to prove itself as a store of value after the stock market collapse.

What's the best performing asset of the year so far, again? Speak loudly so the goldbugs in the back can hear you.

>Now it has to prove itself as a hedge against inflation during an economic depression.

Hard-coded.

>When it dumps this time, the con will be exposed, and that will be it--you will never pump Bitcoin again.

"This time it will be different." It won't. And you'll be able to buy the bottom a year after the bubble, and make obscene amounts of money on the next run-up in 2025.

The idea that Bitcoin will spontaneously collapse after reaching new highs of 100k+ is nothing more than bear delusion at this point. It's wishful thinking for would-be Cassandras. It will have another crash, and people will again proclaim it dead, but again the faithful -- increased in number, with institutions now alongside -- will buy it up at the lows.

The real unknown X factor for Bitcoin is government response. It's entirely feasible that the US, at least, tries to ban the average consumer from buying and selling. It'd be pretty easy too since exchanges are easy targets, and a ton of boomers are going to have what's left of their savings wiped out FOMOing into BTC at the new high. Expect petitions to Congress and lots of tears. Bitcoin may become a scapegoat during a time of widespread financial ruin. Undoubtedly many will be envious and spiteful towards those who make off well. All it would take would be Congress deciding that only accredited investors could purchase crypto, and millions of dreams would be shattered. Which is why it's even more important that you follow the cycle and sell this next top, because it may be your last, even as Bitcoin continues upward in '24-'25.

>>18836727
but who is supposed to buy this crap? the hordes already got burned in 2017, so a lot of them won't get on the hype train anymore... Furthermore many of the big players will start to dump when a certain value is reached, so even more idiots are required to pump the price... there is only a limited number of idiots on this planet and bitcoin requires more of them each time its pumping

>>18837293

>Which is why it's even more important that you follow the cycle and sell this next top, because it may be your last, even as Bitcoin continues upward in '24-'25.

correcting myself: obviously you wouldn't sell all of it. you never sell all of your Bitcoin

>>18833894
>>18833847

if anything. blocksize should be smaller. bitcoin is for rich people, poorpeople are barely human anyway.

>>18837296

Compare the marketcaps of gold and Bitcoin. Compare the marketcap of bonds, dipping into negative yields, with Bitcoin. Compare the marketcap of equities, propped up unsustainably with nowhere to go in the next few years at least, with Bitcoin.

Then consider: institutional involvement (Bakkt), the hordes are retards with squirrel-memories (they will buy back in once the old ATH is reached -- remember, these are the same people who voted for Biden because cable told them to, the Trump voters taking fish deworming pills to protect against covid), and the wealthy with no safe place to put their billions to grow it or even preserve it. Add on infinite QE and a Bitcoin halving that reduces its inflation to less than that of gold and the majority of fiat currencies, including the US dollar.

It's an absolute perfect storm. All you have to do is ask yourself where people will park their money for gains in the next five years. Where? To me the answer is obvious, there are only two places: precious metals and Bitcoin.

>>18837293

>What's the best performing asset of the year so far, again? Speak loudly so the goldbugs in the back can hear you.

Gold crashed 10% when the stock market crashed. Bitcoin crashed 60%. That's the salient point. It failed to prove itself as a store of value. Bitcoin bugs have to convince the general public that their asset is digital gold in order to get the normies involved--in order for BTC not to be a short-term pump and dump. When it dumps again, which it will once BTC gets to a certain price, because BTC owners know that the code is fundamentally flawed, and that BTC is a scam, BTC is finished.

>Hard-coded.

Only if people actually want Bitcoin. But as something so feeble and volatile cannot be a store of value, the hard-coding is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you have 21 million of what people don't want. There are also 21 million BCH and 21 million BSV.

>"This time it will be different." It won't. And you'll be able to buy the bottom a year after the bubble, and make obscene amounts of money on the next run-up in 2025.

Rather than mess about with guessing tops and bottoms in crypto, I'd rather just invest in gold and sleep easily, knowing that I'll more than double my money at the very least, which even Bank of America is admitting is going to happen. ($3000 gold.) Once BTC is exposed as a scam after this dump, people will run into gold and push the price up even more, because they will know, with certainty, that crypto is not a safe haven.

BTC is not sustainable in the long-term. I won't say it about all crypto, but BTC is certainly a ponzi scheme. Everybody involved in it knows that it can't scale, hence the idea that it can go to $20,000 or even $30,000, and stay there as a floor, is ridiculous. BCH and XMR are the only cryptos capable of fulfilling Satoshi Nakamoto's vision; but, once BTC collapses, people will become so frightened of crypto that they will probably run out of the whole space altogether, and go into gold.

gold is the superior store of value, no debate

>>18835353
So just use a stablecoin if you're worried. What's the big deal?

>>18837424
>Go into gold
Cool, can I send gold instantly across the planet, or use it with a smart contract? Can I memorise a key code, walk through customs without being stopped & access my gold on the other side? No? Different use case then. Whatever the issues with Btc, cryptos as a whole will be fine.

>>18837497

>can I send gold instantly across the planet

Yes. Sign up for an account on GoldMoney.com and you can send as little as a gram of gold to another GoldMoney user. You can also get a credit card which spends your gold grams in fiat. You can buy a cup of coffee or anything else that is as small in price as you like.

>Can I memorise a key code, walk through customs without being stopped & access my gold on the other side

You can memorize your username and password to GoldMoney or BullionVault and travel all over the world without being stopped for your precious metals, yes. They are perfectly safe in a vault in Switzerland or Singapore; and, even during the Great Depression, the U. S. government didn't try to confiscate overseas bullion. Even if somebody tortured you, they couldn't get your bullion from you; but how much pain could you endure before you gave up your memorized BTC password? Perhaps you'll write the password down, then, and not memorize it, to protect yourself from such an event. But then you risk burglary, fires, or hard-drive corruption.

You can also take up to $10,000 through airport customs without declaring it; and, as gold coins have a face value of $100, you can even take hundreds of thousands of dollars of physical gold coins on an aeroplane with you, and it is entirely legal to do so.

>Whatever the issues with Btc, cryptos as a whole will be fine.

When BTC crashes, all the other cryptos crash with it. Crypto has a future, because it does things that gold doesn't, just as gold does things that crypto doesn't. But a person would be a fool to bet on crypto right now rather than gold, knowing that the biggest crypto coin is a ponzi scheme that must fail.

>>18837424

>Gold crashed 10% when the stock market crashed. Bitcoin crashed 60%. That's the salient point.

That's not a point at all. Bitcoin has a much, much smaller marketcap -- THAT is the point, and that's why there's so much short-to-medium term volatility. Bitcoin's volatility has progressively decreased as its marketcap has grown. Naturally -- this is why we won't be going to ten million dollars during the next bull. 1000x jumps are in its past. It takes more and more capital to move the price the bigger Bitcoin gets.

Of course, this short-term volatility is the cost of huge future gains. If gold were sitting at a couple billion dollar marketcap, it too would see big swings back and forth, and it too would have far more room to grow. (Having said that, gold will have a bull run too, it just won't be close to Bitcoin's.)

>because BTC owners know that the code is fundamentally flawed, and that BTC is a scam, BTC is finished.

Peter Schiff, is that you? Stop fudding for a second and give the plebs a chance to buy. Haven't you accumulated enough by now?

>But as something so feeble and volatile cannot be a store of value, the hard-coding is irrelevant.

As mentioned, the perceived feebleness is the only way it's currently such a huge profit-engine. No risk, no reward. The day Bitcoin is widely perceived as strong and unshakeable is the day it will be almost completely capitalized. The goal is to buy long before that day.

>Everybody involved in it knows that it can't scale

Irrelevant at this point. For small transactions stablecoins like DAI exist, and Monero for privacy as you've mentioned. Bitcoin now serves a different purpose than the one it was intended for. Altcoins will never be a store-of-value; network effects prevent it.

I don't blame you for holding gold, it has done well and will continue to do so over the next couple years. But you're missing out on the wealth-generation opportunity of centuries by refusing to hold any Bitcoin.

>>18837591

*if gold were sitting at a couple hundred billion dollar marketcap

>>18837407
i know cryptofags hate this phrase but all of the assets you listed have some kind of intrinsic value. Bitcoins value is solely based on the exceptions that more idiots will buy it.
I admit this has been true for years now and it did not stop BTC. However, the more people are invested in crypto and the more institutional investors are involved, the more efficient the market will become. Believe it or not, you are not the only human being able to predict this "storm". Especially institutional investors would have pumped up the price already if it was so clear that it will go up.

So my point is BTC is a ponci scheme which is slowely ruining out of new idiots to support it. If there were enough idiots they would have bought already (especially since crypto-fags have been shilling the halvening for more than a year now). That being said, there will be some kind pump in the near future, as there are some idtios left who fear to miss out, but probably nowhere near 2017.

>>18833847
>Segwit2X
it was full of bugs it had miner support and all but it was a disaster waiting to happen also it's testnet came to a standstill because of faulty code.

>>18837591

>That's not a point at all. Bitcoin has a much, much smaller marketcap -- THAT is the point, and that's why there's so much short-to-medium term volatility. Bitcoin's volatility has progressively decreased as its marketcap has grown.

I know that this is the argument which people generally made before 2020, but I don't think that it's true any more. When BTC crashed 60% in March, it was finished as anything more than a speculative investment. It proved that it couldn't withstand the winds of adversity, which was supposed to be the whole point of investing in it. If it only goes up when stocks go up, then it has no purpose.

>As mentioned, the perceived feebleness is the only way it's currently such a huge profit-engine. No risk, no reward. The day Bitcoin is widely perceived as strong and unshakeable is the day it will be almost completely capitalized. The goal is to buy long before that day.

I can't foresee how you'll get any fresh blood at this point. The people who already have BTC clearly do _not_ believe it, because they consistently pump and dump it. No normie is going to look at $15,000 or $20,000 price for Bitcoin and sanely buy it after what happened last time. But let's say the normies do do that. Well, once the inevitable _does_ happen, and the price dumps, no normie will ever touch it again.

>Irrelevant at this point. For small transactions stablecoins like DAI exist, and Monero for privacy as you've mentioned. Bitcoin now serves a different purpose than the one it was intended for. Altcoins will never be a store-of-value; network effects prevent it.

If gold has already proven itself to be a store of value, then we don't need Bitcoin for that. Besides, Bitcoin was never intended to be a store of value. It was intended to liberate humanity and make even the poorest person his own private bank--to make transactions cheap and instant. BCH is still trying to fulfil that purpose; BTC is only for moonboys.

>>18837591
>Altcoins will never be a store-of-value; network effects prevent it.
Bitcoin has fuck all network effect. Comparing it to Yahoo and MySpace is generous.

>>18835314
You're not supposed to use Bitcoin for microtransactions. At what point of history did you see bars of gold being used to trade for small things? If you retards can't grasp these simple concepts, it's no wonder you think Bitcoin is worthless - for that purpose, of course it is. But money makers are much smarter than that. And I guess that's why you'll continue to be poor.

>>18837660
there might be however some quite lucrative altcoins, which you can find if you are a smart "investor". for example LINK. with some overhype, FOMO and apparent fundamentals the result was a x20 from 0,20$.

so of course its a gamble, but having some 5k$ suicide stack in some really promising alts might net you a big profit after all.

but otherwise I agree, its a purely speculative asset, but so is everything else. also stocks lost 50% in chaos. oil was crushed. silver even. so there is not really a safe haven but only your conclusions of how to handle your "wealth" will either increase, decrease or preserve your wealth.

>On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward
https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arvindn/publications/mining_CCS.pdf
Princeton university

>Beyond the doomsday
economics of “proof-of work” in cryptocurrencies
Monetary and Economic Department

https://www.bis.org/publ/work765.pdf

"Second, the transaction market cannot generate an adequate level of
“mining” income via fees as users free-ride on the fees of other transactions in a block and in the
subsequent blockchain. Instead, newly minted bitcoins, known as block rewards, have made up the bulk
of mining income to date. Looking ahead, these two limitations imply that liquidity is set to fall dramatically
as these block rewards are phased out. Simple calculations suggest that once block rewards are zero, it
could take months before a Bitcoin payment is final, unless new technologies are deployed to speed up
payment finality. Second-layer solutions such as the Lightning Network might help, but the only
fundamental remedy would be to depart from proof-of-work, which would probably require some form
of social coordination or institutionalisation."

>Written by phd´s in computer science and economics. Bitcoiners can’t refute this fud, lol. These academic papers prove that proof of work will not work longterm.
Another weakness is the lack of on chain governance, which results in huge governance and coordination problems, and limits innovation.

>>18836429
That seems easy to trade. Or am I being retarded for thinking so?

>>18838728
Yes. Because you would need to predict the future. XRP tards have been posting longs meme for years now TA since the bull market that propelled it to 4$. just look on tradingview on xrp/usd or xrp/btc and it never came true.

when you repeat it like a mantra for 100.000 times, you might eventually be correct. but not minding the other 99.999 times.

.t frustrated xrp holder with probably ten thousands of opportunity cost due to this shit token

>>18838835
I don't even understand how one could invest in xrp. you must be tech illiterate to do so. Actually, just one glance at the total supply and distribution ( ripple who printed it out of thin air owns 60% of the supply ) should have made you realise its never going to become the global reserve currency. no one wants FIAT 2.0 aka XRP, led from a U.S.A company.

>>18838645

Silver was definitely a disappointment, but it did follow previously known behaviour. It always drops down in stock market crashes, but then recoups previous gains and later outperforms gold. The really significant thing is that gold _did_ hold its own and do exactly what it is meant to do; and when gold is up, it pulls the mining stocks and other precious metals up along with it, like a rubber band.

Undoubtedly there's money to be made in gambling on crypto, but I'm happy to know that I can just put my money in gold, know that it will go up double or triple over the next few years, and sleep easily at night. No need for checking prices every day and panicking about buying and selling. I think that the psychological relief is worth it.