/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>18570167
>You have a novel life saving medicine?
>Here just go through our $1.5 billion regulatory process
>Oh you want to build a hospital there?
>Sorry the Rothstein medical center is within 50 miles of there, that's too much competition!
>t. Government

>>18570237
But Europe has arguably even more government involvement than the US and they don't have such massive costs

>>18570167
private healthcare has to take into account (((ROI)))

Lawsuits and insurance fraud

>>18570237
>>18570261
These are both correct. Rich people own medical corporations so they demand profit, and they own politicians so they make the entire market very anti-competitive which allows them to build monopolies on both treatments and facilities. It's the same thing with internet providers and even water/electric in some American counties. This is the exact definition of oligarchy.

>>18570251

Congrats for realizing how cucked the US healthcare system is.

The US pays MULTIPLE times more for most patented drugs than every other developed nation. Sometimes 500% more.

Unironically most burgers who defend the system don't realize that the US paying such exorbitant amounts is a big part of what allows pharma companies to charge other countries considerably less. All these anti-socialism burgers are actively encouraging a sort of global healthcare socialist model where they pay more so others can pay less.

It's fucking amazing really when you think about it.

>>18570167
Jews.

>>18570736
came here to say this

their whole existance is about getting your money

>>18570167
-Near zero regulation on drug pricing (even though a good amount of public funding goes to private companies for drug research)
-Medical supplies cost an arm and a leg because once again the government lets medical companies run free and do whatever the fuck they want

>>18570237 is a retard for thinking the testing process for making sure drugs are safe is why drugs are expensive. Look at the cost of insulin if you want to know how dumb he is to think this

People who profit from the system but add value to it
-Doctors
-Scientists
-Corporate bureaucrats in biotech (arguably)
-Biotech investors
-Biotech creditors
-Manufacturers of ip protected medical supplies that they developed

People who profit from the system while adding no value to it
-HMOs
-Their investors
-Their creditors
-The market for their financial products
-The brokers for their financial products
-Insurance companies
-Their investors
-Their creditors
-The market for their financial products
-The brokers for their financial products
-Manufacturers of non-ip protected medical supplies but who are doing so purely to make margins

If you want to trim the fat the place to start is logically with the people adding no value but still engaging in rent-seeking behavior. Notice how after the insurance companies the first people the politicians go after is biotech though? It's because the rest of them are invisible to the average voter and have powerful lobbies.

>>18570167
low taxes

>>18570910
Don't forget the ghouls known as pharmacy benefit managers

Because democrats are fucking retarded.
>Make everyone required to have insurance
>Set price floors based on limited ceilings
>Insurers can't compete across state lines
>Despite all this bullshit do absolutely nothing to regulate medical costs in hospitals


Before 2008 I had a job at McDonald's and had better insurance than I did at my first out of college job in 2013...

>>18570875
>Near zero regulation...

Stop right there. Large medical corporations and large doctors groups fucking write all the massive amounts of regulation in order to inflate prices and lock out competitors. Why are nurse practitioners not allowed to deliver primary care without parking under a dictor? Doctors groups lobbied for it. Medical prices will fall if competition is allowed and insurance goes back to covering only rare and catastrophic circumstances and all other medical expenses are paid in cash/credit by the consumer without government funding. Can't pay? Seek charity treatment, hopefully you aren't a massive piece of shit nobody wants to help. This is the same process that makes your flat screen TV fall in price over time, laws of economics are not suspended just because the product is medical care rather than food or consumer electronics.

>>18570251
Europe rations, America doesn't. We just pay more and more and more rather than setting a budget.

>>18570786
Money is a means to an end. They want power over the goyim

>>18570167
>why is healthcare expensive
>why is college expensive
why is government the problem

>>18571498
read >>18570251

>>18571498
>>why is college expensive
>why is government the problem
Government hasn't had a hand in the absurd raise in private college pricing

AMA and other organizations are peak rent seeking and restrict labor to keep wages high.

If the AMA had their way, nurses and PAs still couldn't prescribe anything, and getting a $0.05 antibiotic would cost $300.

>>18571509
US government in involved in healthcare to the tune of $1+ trillion dollars a year plus massive regulatory bureaucracy, and military "healthcare system", combined it is by far the largest on planet earth by an order of magnitude. Of it's many components, the parts directly operated by the government work the worst.

>>18570167
"public expenditure"
man, what a term

>>18571551
WAT
Government loan subsidies are directly causal to tuition hikes. Without government guarantees, not a single bank would risk loaning to students for worthless degrees and colleges would have to severely cut tuition and administrative bloat that has sucked up virtually all that excess money.

>>18571760
>Without government guarantees, not a single bank would risk loaning to students for worthless degrees


I think you're putting the cart before horse here. If weren't for loan subsidies then a "worthless" degree wouldn't be so worthless. Fewer people would have attended college, and the tuition would be astronomically lower.

I have a history degree, $40,000 in student debt, and earn about $40,000 at my current job. 40k/yr salary right out of college used to be considered decent, but now if you aren't 80k you're considered a failure. And back when 40k was a decent salary, college wouldn't have cost 40k either.

>>18571967
Semantics. Colleges would have been unable to raise tuition far in excess of the rate of inflation without government loan backing and artificiality low interest rates.
Tuition started it's stratospheric rise right after government loan intervention.

>>18571082

>>18571692

It's because burgerland is this fucked up frankenstein of rampant capitalist private healthcare and huge federal funding systems. Because of the left/right polarization the only solutions that gain any traction are half-way steps that try to combine the two and fail to work effectively.

One such example is that despite the US healthcare industry being so large, it's made up of thousands of individual buyers with little leverage. Meanwhile, the NHS is the world's single largest buyer of pharmaceuticals by a mile. That gives huge purchasing power to get discounts and results in the Brits paying far less than the burgers for drugs.

Half-way solutions to fix that don't work though as they counteract muh free market competition, so burgers end up being stuck with endless billions of wasted dollars.

>>18570910
>insurance companies profit a couple percent
>doctors profit 300%
>let's go after the insurance companies first
Peak brainlet leftypol

>>18572097
>it's made up of thousands of individual buyers with little leverage

This is how every market works. Except healthcare of course, where it is next to impossible buy healthcare as a product because of government intervention. This is exactly why both elective surgery and veterinary services are so much cheaper per procedure and more readily available compared to regular healthcare, no goverenment subsidy and far less regulatory burden.

>>18572077
It's not really semantics though. Universities are supposed to be where you go to learn more in depth about a subject that interests you. This idea that college is some kinda job-training facility is exactly why we are in the current situation. Go ask all the rich boomers what they studied in college, and I guarantee most of them arent gonna say STEM. Tons of boomers went to liberal arts and got decent jobs because college was understood to be more than a job certificate.

If business or engineering is what you're passionate about then by all means study it, but decrying everyone else as worthless is just shallow. I wanted to study history professionally, and still hope to do so one day when I can afford a PhD. It's not the fault of the students if they want to learn more about something.

>>18570167
FUCK government regulation of healthcare

>>18572238
buying healthcare isn't like buying a TV or a burger, it's incredibly complicated and 99% of the general population has no information other than what is being told to them by the people it's being sold by
imagine you're buying a TV and the only information you can get is from the manufacturer (you can't read reviews because you don't know anything about medicine), and you can't walk away from the bargaining table since you need this healthcare (otherwise you'll suffer and die), does that sound like a free market to you?
and this doesn't even mention how complicated it is for people who are unconscious from an accident, how the fuck are they supposed to bargain for the correct procedure?

take your neoliberal ass and fuck off

>>18571760
pretty sure colleges hiked tuition before the gov loans

>>18572238

Are you retarded? The countries with public healthcare systems are paying FAR less than the US for drugs. While individual hospitals have no bargaining power in the global market, single-country buyers like the NHS are getting drugs at massively discounted rates compared to burgers.

It's absolutely fucking amazing that people defend a system in their country where:

- They pay far more for drugs and services than any other developed nation.

- They personally pay the same or more for healthcare when adding on health insurance costs, even after deducting tax savings.

- Despite paying for healthcare, if they get sick they are STILL fucked over by co-pays and deductibles, and in some cases can still be made bankrupt or be refused care.

The level of brainwashing is mighty impressive.

>>18570167
people will pay up if you convince them you preside over life and death

>>18570910
>Doesn't list pharmacy benefits managers
lmao people don't even know what these are. That's one of the big problems aside from it's existence is the whole system is so fucking complicated nobody has any idea of what's going on. Obamacare is literally a stacks of papers ~10 feet tall.

>>18572507
This is a low IQ NPR argument. Honestly you'd have to be incredibly dumb and uninformed to believe this. 5 seconds of thought and you could see how retarded this argument is.

>>18572782
Not an argument. Please actually provide an argument if you want to counter my points, instead of ad-hominem attacks.

>>18572256
Universities are merely IQ filters, or at least they used to be until affirmative action and diversity initiatives killed much of that function. A simple IQ test is more functional as an indicator of worker viability than a college degree, it is just that it is illegal for employers to use IQ tests, so they use as close a proxy as they can (some, like Google, disregard degrees and have their own application testing that is so highly correlated with IQ it is only matter of government ineptitude/corruption that it hasn't been prosecuted). For a minority of degrees, there is useful purpose in going to college.

>>18572507

What's amazing is some people think you can create an effective free market and price equilibrium with consumers who are at risk of death if they don't receive treatment.

Someone buying a TV = "No, these prices are too high, I'd prefer not to buy the TV"

Someone with cancer = "No, these prices are too high, I'd prefer to die instead"

Sure, that'll work.

>>18570875
>>>18570237 is a retard for thinking the testing process for making sure drugs are safe is why drugs are expensive. Look at the cost of insulin if you want to know how dumb he is to think this
Safety testing is cheap, testing for efficacy costs 1 billion+ per drug

>>18572097
just wait until they come out with:
>it's expensive because drug and medicine companies pour their money into R&D!! USA NUMBER ONE 1!1111!11!!!111!!!!"

>>18573038

Meanwhile the US pays x2-x5 more for drugs compared to the UK.

It takes a really special level of brainwashing to defend your own country paying considerably more for the same thing compared to everyone else.

>>18572544
Only to the degree inflation allowed. Government loan subsidies started in 1965 and really ramped up in the 2000's.

>>18572507
You are brainwashed by your superiors to believe that healthcare is so complicated it can't be left to the free market. For most healthcare, it is far less complicated than running a tech company or building passenger jets. Chosing alternate healthcare options is hard because the government makes it illegal to have hospitals "too close" to each other. Healthcare is less critical to survival than food, clothing and housing, all industries that are left overwhelmingly to the market, and where they fail (housing), you will again find government interference (zoning restrictions limiting supply, government backed loans and artificially low rates driving up price)

>>18572577
I pay zero for healthcare, because I keep myself healthy I never go to doctors, I don't buy health insurance, and I legally pay net negative federal taxes because I structured my assets and incomes correctly. I have plenty of money to pay for treatment if I break a leg. Worst case, I'll show up to the emergency room and give my name as Juan Paco, and get free healthcare just like the illegals do, until they close that loophole. Keep paying into the system goy, I'm sure they won't ration your healthcare when your country is post white.

>>18572874
They still are IQ filters. A lot of the people I know at my shitty warehouse job actually went to college for at least one or two semesters. They just didn't finish.

>>18572874
>(some, like Google, disregard degrees and have their own application testing that is so highly correlated with IQ it is only matter of government ineptitude/corruption that it hasn't been prosecuted)
*citation needed*

>>18573446

Holy fuck the level of brainlet to think that "keeping yourself healthy" means you'll never need care. It just takes one stroke of bad luck and you have a multi-million dollar bill to deal with that bankrupts you, and all for the sake of saving a couple thousand dollars in taxes.

I didn't realize so many burgers are this backwards.

>>18573446
>I pay zero for healthcare, because I keep myself healthy I never go to doctors, I don't buy health insurance, and I legally pay net negative federal taxes because I structured my assets and incomes correctly.

You know you could get a HDHP, and pay like only $1200 per year for health insurance then dump $3500 per year into an HSA completely TAX FREE. You're making midwit moves my man.

>>18573446
>You are brainwashed by your superiors to believe that healthcare is so complicated it can't be left to the free market.
ok sugar
>For most healthcare, [buying healthcare] is far less complicated than running a tech company or building passenger jets.
Oh really? Is that why people are over-prescribed medicines so that the hospital can make a quick buck? Is that why patients are run through tens of different scanners and tests so that the hospital can charge them extra and make even more money? And remember, patients have no medical training to be able to take decisions for themselves on whether that CT scan is too much or if that prescribed drug is unnecessary. For you to sit here and tell us that it's simple to choose healthcare is mind boggling.
>Chosing alternate healthcare options is hard because the government makes it illegal to have hospitals "too close" to each other.
*citation needed*
>Healthcare is less critical to survival than food, clothing and housing, all industries that are left overwhelmingly to the market
You do know that food is regulated up the ass, right? You can't sell whatever food you find, nor can you manufacture whatever food you want. You have to conform to bodies like the FDA.
And I can't understand why you bring up clothing as if it's some kind of gotcha. How does clothing affect my health? It doesn't, it's a false example.

Oh and also,
>I pay zero for healthcare, because I keep myself healthy I never go to doctors, I don't buy health insurance
What's your plan if you contract something like leukaemia or Chrone's disease?
>I have plenty of money to pay for treatment if I break a leg.
So you think this is the only health problem you can encounter? Wow, I really do pity you when you get a serious disease later down in your life like Parkinson's or Alzheimer's
>Worst case, I'll show up to the emergency room and give my name as Juan Paco, and get free healthcare just like the illegals do
*citation needed*

>>18570167
3 words
The Jews

>>18574056

>>18573838
>multi-million dollar bill
What the fuck are you even sperging about, NEET? Few medical procedures or care reach a million, mostly organ transplant and follow-up therapy. A heart attack costs on average $50k to treat.

>>18573838
Hey fuckwit, law says I can drop into health insurance any year I want at the prevailing rate without penalty. Yet another budget blasting blunder of government intervention. Thanks for paying for my future healthcare, wagie.

Honestly, why would I impoverish myself on the ultra slim chance I need multi million dollar emergency care? If I need to spend $50k for medical a year before re-entering insurance, so what? I've saved more than that by being able to invest money that would have otherwise gone to treat retards with diabitus. If you need 5 million in healthcare, guess what, your insurance sure as fuck ain't covering that and you are going bankrupt anyway. In bongland, you just don't get $5million of treatment period, subjects aren't worth that much.

>>18573938
I pay zero for healthcare because I'm a NEET and everything is free even my xanax. Feels good to be a two wit

>>18570167
Government backed monopolies.

>>18574087
If you're born with a chronic disease you can reach 1 million in spending pretty quick. I remember a story about a kid who was born prematurely with serious health issues, and by the time he was 7, his insurance had paid over a million dollars in paying for all his medicine/healthcare.

>>18574160
Any links for further reading on this?

>>18573990
See >>18574131

Exploiting the healthcare law is easy and profitable

>>18574131
Your post doesn't reply to even half of what I mentioned in my previous post, why point me to it? I'll point out your inaccuracies however.

>law says I can drop into health insurance any year I want at the prevailing rate without penalty.
*citation needed*
>why would I impoverish myself on the ultra slim chance I need multi million dollar emergency care? If I need to spend $50k for medical a year before re-entering insurance, so what?
Health insurance doesn't cost more than $7k/yr.
>I've saved more than that by being able to invest money
No, you would have saved more than that if you invested your $7k/yr for 7 years straight minimum. Don't try to pretend that this is instant. You really think your life and health is going to be perfect for 7 years straight without needing to visit a GP at least once? Come on.
>If you need 5 million in healthcare, guess what, your insurance sure as fuck ain't covering that and you are going bankrupt anyway.
No, the ACA removed lifetime limits. This is simply untrue.
https://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the-aca/benefit-limits/index.html
>In bongland, you just don't get $5million of treatment period, subjects aren't worth that much.
*citation needed*

>>18573446
>>18574131
Let me remind you of all your unsubstantiated claims:

>Chosing alternate healthcare options is hard because the government makes it illegal to have hospitals "too close" to each other.
>Worst case, I'll show up to the emergency room and give my name as Juan Paco, and get free healthcare just like the illegals do
>law says I can drop into health insurance any year I want at the prevailing rate without penalty.
>In bongland, you just don't get $5million of treatment period

>>18574206
>>18574160
Nothing, eh? Let me guess, you pulled the phrase out of your ass because in your view the government is responsible for everything and you didn't actually do any research?

>>18570167
The cost of liability insurance.

That's a big unspoken reason for the current lockdowns. No one wants to get sued because someone got sick while on their property.

>>18570167
Solely because your corrupt as fuck health care system that is a cartel of insurance and private medical companies. You retards are often charged 5-20 times for the same medicine compared to Europeans. You have a fobia of public healthcare because >sOcIALiSM
And you choose to get fucked in the ass instead, paying a fuckton more and getting shittier health care.

>>18570167
Government interference and administration, nothing more.

>>18576112
Really huh? How so? Any examples?