/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>18120398
Unironically should look into CKB DAO if you want to avoid theft from miners in PoW

>>18120398
statism is just a form of religion

>>18120398
>Taxation is theft
MMT kicks in

>theft

>>18120398
Indeed.

>>18120893
Statism is a form of stockholm syndrome.

Property is theft.

>>18120398
>try to teach offspring about taxation
>eat 1/3 of their ice cream
>it’s ok bobo, they say, cuz I love you.

Them feels

Communists think that depriving the community of something is stealing, instead of taking something that doesn't belong to you without permission.

>"Property is theft, and by theft I mean property."

Market doesn't function if the state isn't there to clean up after it.

>>18120398
If your income is paid to you in fed notes, then it is not theft because the money never belonged to you.

>>18120398

>>18120398
you're not wrong. So is wage slavery.

>>18121518
Why dont you try to back your pretty circles up with some actual figures?

Pro tip: you can't. Taxation > "surplus value extracted blah blah"

land ownership is theft

>>18121532
only voluntary ones

>>18121532
>Hierarchies
Yes.

>>18121228
>says the fag posting on his computer

>>18121228
>>18121172
I am unable to understand this position, how is taxation NOT theft? It makes absolutely no sense how somebody could possibly think this. it's like saying a motorbike isn't a kind of vehicle.

>>18121624
Taxation isn't theft if ethics don't exist lol

>>18121624
just don't give them your money

>>18121624
the well argued position will focus on: define consent.
you are free to move to any number of countries that have favorable tax strategies.

>>18121518
This argument is so old. The rules are the same for everyone.I take the risk to start a business, I get funding. Why should I be the same as an employee?

>>18121370
couldn't be further from the truth

>>18121624
See
>>18121377

You are goyim nigger cattle and own nothing therefore taxation can never be theft.

>>18121640
I mean, if I don't give them my money they'll send enforces to my house and escalate force against me until i comply or die, and then once I comply or am subdued I'll have my property and or currency taken and probably get put in a cage. I just don't see how that isn't theft.
>>18121656
If you stab someone in the face and they die it's murder, but if you were in a country where that was legal it would be killing. Point is ethics should be universal otherwise you run into these ridiculous logical arguments for what is and isn't theft based on where you live. Also lol move elsewhere isn't an argument for taking by force not being theft. I can't wrap my mind around how these people think it even could be mane. I can only think they do it on purpose to befuddle you and take you out of the argument.

>>18121518
>labour theory of value

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>18121518
There is nothing wrong in this photo, is this supposed to be a critique on libertarian logic?

>>18121624
You are not an island. Your job wouldn't exist, and your money would not have value, if you didn't live in a society, and there's no such thing as a society without a government. The government is entitled to a share of your money because without the government, that money would not exist.

>>18121555
theft from whom?

>>18121713
Entirely untrue on every measure.

>>18121713
>you are a slave
>you consented to the social contract when you were born

>>18121682
>I mean, if I don't give them my money they'll send enforces to my house and escalate force against me until i comply or die, and then once I comply or am subdued I'll have my property and or currency taken and probably get put in a cage. I just don't see how that isn't theft.
Ur weak so they gonna take shit from you. It worked like that since we discovered fire. Ancap or other memes won't change animals

>>18121717
no one created the land, therefore no one ever had the right to sell it to you

>>18121656
>you are free to move to any number of countries
not entirely true but yes, if you move to a country voluntarily knowing their tax laws, isn't that like signing an agreement that you'd rather live there and pay tax for the privilege of a "better" society? Isn't that voluntary exchange?

>>18121172
stirner is a spook

>>18121735
No, because you are still being stolen from. Replace taxation with rape and your argument doesn't change in the slightest.

>>18121732
Land doesn't exist.

>>18121732
so no one can sell animals either?

>>18121746
well if you willingly moved to a country knowing 100% that once every month you would be raped, then I don't really see the problem. Confuses matters when you are born into the society though

>>18121775

>>18121735
To a degree. Fraudulent social control is that which is exercised as a result of a breach of the chain of property ownership through valid means.

The extent to which societal norms are a product of fraudulent ownership is the degree to which a society is unfree; the extent to which one's life is affected by fraudulent ownership is the degree to which one is unfree

>>18121667
>Real capitalism has never been tried

Kek, without a state monopoly on violence capitalism doesn't function, the NAP is idealism.

>>18121682
>Point is ethics should be universal otherwise you run into these ridiculous logical arguments
you are doomed then. will never happen.
the biggest issue that ancaps have is the ridiculous notions about violence. cant seem to grasp that violence is the normative case.
there is only 'might makes right' there is no other case. even in ancapistan the 'might' just comes from who is paying the dao

>I watched The Animal Kingdom on TV. Graceful animals like gazelles and antelopes spent their days in abject terror while lions and panthers lived out their lives in listless imbecility punctuated by explosive bursts of cruelty. They slaughtered weaker animals, dismembered and devoured the sick and the old before falling back into a brutish sleep where the only activity was that of the parasites feeding on them from within. Some of these parasites were hosts to smaller parasites, which in turn were breeding ground for viruses. . . I trembled with indignation. But as I watched, the unshakable conviction grew that nature, taken as a whole, was a repulsive cesspit.

>― Michel Houellebecq, The Elementary Particles

>>18121792
All political theory is idealistic

>>18121802
Truth doesn't care about practicality. The real isn't disproof of the Ideal.

Shut the fuck up and pay your taxes, nigger cattle. Or don't and get shot. Up to you.

>>18121518
Consensual agreements nigger

>>18121802
all an caps want is for the slaves to realize that they are slaves
once they do, you will see the real might and real right

>>18121802
Sure, but that doesn't mean you should give up and become a nihilist. Nor does it mean you can't view things objectively or argue over what is virtuous. Why make distinctions between good and evil if evil is the trend, why work towards better things, why aren't we still in roman times living under slave systems or before that when cannibalism was the method of extracting value from your underlings?
Extracting yourself from the brutality of nature is a goal of its own, without it we would have nothing and would not have risen much from the state of those lions.

>>18121723
>you consented to the social contract when you were born
yes, you are free to leave their territory.

>>18121180
Incredibly based
>>18120398
Yes, infrastructure and welfare should be payed for by donations
I would like a organisation that uses donations earmarked instead of taxes being wasted for whatever
When donating there should be a box to uncheck if you want it to be private, else the donation cause and ammount should be published on social media to incentive people to donate for the common cause
>first infrastructure will go into the shitter, then when people realize this there will be lots of donations, especially karens would love the social media feature to brag about what good people they are

>>18121878
Not in east Germany.

>>18121878
There's no reason not to properly universalise 'territory' into 'the universe', at which point you no longer have any remote moral or ethical apparatus at all. Ethnic genocide by a foreign invader becomes fine.

>>18121818
>>18121834
there is nothing in ancap belief that I am against at a philosophical level.

i am simply falling back on realization that in the real world there are gangs of niggers around every corner who will kill you and steal your shit, and 1 level up these niggers vote for a higher level of criminal called politicians who steal your shit (and give a tiny percentage back to the niggers that voted for them)...and 1 level above that is a banking cartel that exist to steal a portion of everyones shit....and below it all is a vast biological network of bacteria, viruses, and parasites that are constantly feeding, eating and taking all they can.

this is not a nihilist realization. it is a clear vision of how the world works and what it takes to survive. I did not design the rules of the system, but it is what it is. Ultimately violence is the only solution.

>>18121792
>without a state monopoly on violence capitalism doesn't function
why?

>>18121931
The goal is ultimately the long-term maximisation of freedom, I agree. Setting niggers loose from prison for dealing drugs because they 'didn't violate muh NAP' is obviously for retards.

Pretty much all actions in our current society require the instrumental employment of stolen property anyway. So ultimately I suppose we agree.

>>18121518
Red circle is taxes, orange circle is surplus value extracted and yellow is the actual income

>>18121787
I have no idea what any of this means dude

>>18121931
the reason white people exist is because of extreme selection
nigger do not stand a chance

the reason politicians exist is because you can scare the sheeple into a heard

no longer can politicians leverage people and tell the to do things, people are becoming increasingly based and soon that will inevitable lead to social decohesion and ancapistan

we already won, literally

>>18121975
you'll die sooner lol
keep dreaming

>>18121957
That's what someone's language starts to look like when they self-isolated for years on end and only talk to themselves and to books i guess

>>18121713
imagine being this low IQ

what is the "government" more than the biggest gangs with guns and why can't I start my own on my own land then?

>>18121775
Now tell this to a wife who gets beaten by her husband, when the alternative is only husbands who beat her a bit less

>>18121997
You sure sound smart but high verbosity =/= actual intelligence. My own fault I can't comprehend your reply, though

>>18122016
She can always live without a husband beating her. If she's married with a husband it's because she prefers being with him than not.

>>18121952
>Setting niggers loose from prison for dealing drugs because they 'didn't violate muh NAP' is obviously for retards.
agreed...and i'm not even an edgy racist (nor do I think you are). we are being incredibly kind to those niggers busted with 2 joints.
the reality is we recognize they dont fit in our system nor share its ideals and we recognize that the only solution is to kill them. However, such a realization gives us pause and we hope we can improve on the brutal nature that we are stuck in....so we concoct elaborate ruses and nonsensical rules that are designed so they can selectively enforced to achieve a 'soft removal'
the problem is that half-measures themselves build up over time and ultimately sadly lead to failure.

>>18122040
it was a fucking example , now exchange husband with country

>>18120863
Where can(should) I buy CKB? looks fucking cool desu

>>18122027
I guess my point was that people can get easily tangled up in false abstractions by getting caught up in the "tax = theft" idea due to how loose the definition of tax is. It's better to talk about these things on a more universal level which clearly addresses (or leaves a window open to) its own presuppositions. The idea of tax is both very common and very wide or spurious in definition. Few people agree on what is tax or what isn't tax. All of the problems which result can this can be solved by laying down a theory of justice, and then declaring that any social norms which result from unjust claims to property are themselves unjustified; or that "taxation" is "theft"

>>18122093
things are very simple
voluntary = good
by force = bad

have your state and taxes, just leave me alone

>>18122115
the point is that it gets very difficult to figure out what is voluntary and what is not when you live in a complex world which is part free and part unfree, and has been so for millenia, given that the 'voluntary' employment of unjustly acquired means is not actually commensurable with freedom.

>>18122144
it is not difficult at all

voluntary good
mandatory bad

show me one example of something good that is mandatory and something bad that is voluntary

Except we get roads, firefighters, police,and social programs in return?

Wish that faggot robbie gave me something in reutrn when he stole all my magic cards that one day during day care.
Or when my cd's were stolen when i was at my flgs.

I'd say taxation isn't theft. So much as it supports corruption amd inefficiency.

>>18120398
only if without representation

>>18121949
How do you enforce contracts? How do you adjudicate disputes between discreet entities beyond naked use of force by the stronger one onto the weaker? How do you punish fraud?

Without a legal system backed with state violence you cannot have a market beyond Mad Max warlords.

>>18122156
i'm on about not knowing the effects of past 'mandatory' decisions. if you can only do something because you have gained means from some past 'mandatory' decision, then your action is itself in the category of 'mandatory' i.e. unjust.

whether or not the social norms imposed on roads are mandatory or voluntary is dependent upon whether or not it's tax funded, no?
then in order to know whether or not any norm is mandatory or voluntary, we would need to know if it would have appeared were all of the means employed in its creation entirely voluntarily procured rather than procured by coercion.

therein lies the difficulty

and therein lies the fact that we don't live in a 'capitalist' society, because the veil of freedom actually dresses coercive superstructures.

>>18122203
insurance companies

>>18122210
what are you talking about, you commie
if something is good you will seek it
if something is bad you will be force to do it

>>18121742
He was an actual cuck

>>18122212
"We have decided that your policy does not cover this unforeseen circumstance. This change in your policy was made without your approval and at our discretion. As there are no courts for your to dispute this in, we will consider the matter thus settled and will raise your monthly premiums for making a claim. Thank you for your continued business!"

>>18122235
you can have several insurances in several companies commie

>>18122221
i'm far more of an ancap and anti-commie than you are. you talk like someone who just discovered Rothbard. you clearly can't even understand the very basic propositions i'm giving you because you haven't even properly internalised the ideology which you're using for emotional support. bravo.

>>18120398
you breathing air is theft
checkmate

>>18122248
You're living in a fantasy world, ancap. Without a rule of law to enforce contracts you literally cannot conduct business, you are asking to be defrauded and / or simply robbed.

>>18122255
we want to kill the state
and the way you do that is starving it

>>18122251
what is property commie ?

>>18122269
An inviolable right, based in the ownership of self, the contents of which are those things justly due to someone as a result of his interaction with some unowned resources.

>>18122269
>kill the state
why kill what nurtures you ?
how is killing the state preferable to reforming the state ?
>the way you do that is starving it
starve who of what exactly ? elaborate in which context starvation is supposed the benefit who exactly.

>>18122261
without the state you will have no right right
take a look at this ex leftie fat boi https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8ewiXhsWfnBENJQLCIxRIQ/videos

>>18122163
so if you get robbed but the robber gives you free thots, food and housing its ok?

this logic is beyond me

>>18121900
East Germany had no taxes.
>>18121912
Morals are a spook. Are you a socialist or something? I (and the vast majority of people on earth) only care about practicality. Go move to Antarctica and make your ancap paradise. Let the grown ups deal with the actual world.

>>18122115
The problem is it doesn't scale.
be in ancapistan:
>live in apartment building so agree by the rules.
>the apartment building wants to make sure residents only use approved electrical devices
>apartment building mandates all electrical devices are "UL certified"
>all other apartment buildings in area have similar rules using different labs...however have so many different 'standards' is a drag on the market
>eventually the market coalesces around just using "UL testing labs" as the common standard
>all electrical devices must be tested by UL testing labs and pay a fee to them
>that fee is built into everything you buy

keep ramping this up across all different areas that need some type of 'regulation' and eventually you will wind up creating a similar situation to what we have now. except 'testing labs' are now 'regulators', etc.
there will be all sorts of 'taxes' that you didn't explicitly agree to and yet are practically inescapable.

>>18122315
I'm not a social engineer. Why would you deal with the actual world of no eventuality is better than any other?

>>18122297
property is a concept that you choose to honer because it is in your interest
it is rational to choose not to honor the concept if it is not in your interest

property is a concept, it does not exist

>>18122305
state is a parasite, If I kill it I will have 5x more instantly
I will starve it because I am the value

>>18122315
How is it not obvious to you that 'practicality' is itself a morality

>>18122307
>no rights
You don't have any rights except those enshrined by the state. That's the social contract you have entered into by your continued presence in this society.

That is probably the worst youtube channel I've ever been recommended to. I can smell the stale baloney smell coming from this guy literally through my laptop screen.

>>18122329
>concepts don't exist, he communicates to me through concepts
epic dude

>>18122321
leave the damn hell hole, or set it on fire

>>18122350
I know I am good, and it is true, property is just a meme

>>18122344
rights are things without life is not worth living

>>18122315
>East Germany had no taxes
east germany also had stalking by the state of its population, starvation, constant shortage of essential goods, no opportunities of advancement, pointless jobs with shitty pay, constant threat to be raped and have your stuff stolen by the occupant red army soldiers

>>18122369
based wishes-he-was-a-schizo-because-schizos-are-deep-and-unpredictable-poster

>>18122354
>leave the damn hell hole, or set it on fire
you can do the same. pack your bags and never pay income taxes again....

>>18122369
Define what makes something in life not worth living for. Because you're straying awfully close to Marxist 'alienation' with that. Are you sure you're not the one who's the commie?

>>18122384
yeah and could also set you on fire
then eat you
I am doing that right now, you are paying for my life, thanks

>>18122329
you didnt answer even a single question but instead choose to continue larping

>state is a parasite
how so, what exactly is the state taking away illegally
>If I kill it I will have 5x more instantly
what will you have more of ? why 5x times and not 4x or 6x ? how exactly do you plan on "killing the state" ?
>I will starve it because I am the value
what exactly makes you so valuable to the state ? what makes you think that the state wont do perfectly fine without you ?

>>18120398
Yes. And what are you going to do about it you little bitch?

The problem with ancap and libertarians in general is that they view the 'state' as the 'other' when in reality it's people organized into the basic foundation of society. It's like moving into a house and blaming the floorboards because you have to pay rent.

everything is theft

>>18122398
well here is how it works
if your life is not worth it, your risk tolerance will be infinite and you will cause trouble
so stable ((states)) will make arrangements to assure that there is some bait in the trap to keep you spinning the wheel
they will call that rights

>>18122410
the state takes value that it did not produce, by force

if I have more value, and other people have more value, that will be compounded and produce even more

since the state is unable to produce value, it can only steal it, all you have to do is wake the sheeple to it
and make sure the state spends 2k to get 1k of value out of you

>>18122410
you're speaking with a wannabe schizo, don't entertain him

>>18120398
Do you also regard all duty as slavery?

>>18122445
You're just creating a strawman of the very same thing I just told you. Rights are those things enshrined as having value to citizens by the government they form. Everyone who lives in that society agrees those things have value and are to be respected, the same thing goes for laws. You may not explicitly agree to them anymore than you agree to follow any laws but your presence means your implicit acceptance.

If you want to deny either of those, you can renounce your citizenship and leave the country.

>>18122321
>implying businesses would become needlessly bureaucratic en mass
>implying this wouldn't be completely isolated to fringe autistic narcissists who somehow procured enough money to acquire a building.
>implying they wouldn't go out of business immediately and be replaced by somebody who isn't pants on head retarded
Cope harder bootlicker.

>>18122544
no you don't get
I would rather fight for what is right
I will starve my country and kill it, because that is what is right

>>18120398

>>18122542
Yes.

>>18122584
Define what is 'right' and why you get to make that determination for anyone other than yourself?

>>18122435
Imagine thinking this but unironically.
>your right to defend yourself against my niggardly predation is oppression and no different to state violence. therefore state violence is good and a necessity.
Imagine thinking that.

>>18122544
>Everyone who lives in that society agrees those things have value and are to be respected
Literally never agreed to shit. Where is my agreement contract?
>but your presence means your implicit acceptance
Being born somewhere doesn't means consent. And no, I don't consent to any laws.

>>18122445
>the state takes value that it did not produce
ah, but citizens, members of the state have produced the value. state is the group of all its members which produce the value.
what makes you think that something you produce has to automatically be your property, or that the exact value of some goods that you produce is your belonging.
the value of goods is determined by outside factors that you cant directly control
>by force
yes, the state serves as the ultimate instance of power which ensures your personal rights, such as the concept of possession and forms a protective instance for individuals.
the concept of playing as a group and sacrificing parts to ensure unity can easily be derived from game theory and also as a strategy is even on a purely mathematically viewpoint more beneficial for the individual than individualism.

>>18122604
in ancapistan you have interests
rights don't really exist, everyone assumes you can assume anything
it is safe to assume that interest holders will not want to loose value

>>18122616
>I didn't consent to be born

>>18122599
Then I congratulate you. Your ideology is still stupid, but at least you're consistent about it, unlike most of its proponents.

>>18122616
Then you are free to leave or use the apparatus of government to try and change the law to better fit your desire, but you don't get to just say "nuh uh" to the rule of law and the society and suddenly exist outside of its control.

>>18122608
your retardation oppresses me

ancapism.
You mean the ideology that allow people to trade babies for heroin?

>>18122624
ok we have some progress
the state produces no value
the state just takes and destroys
the state is not the people, the state is some people

the way that the state works is, it needs 4-12 and the university to indoctrinates the lill cuck

and then debt

>>18122648
but what about the children
look officer, this programing no longer works
people kill their babies in the womb and have none
you need a new vector

>>18122652
>I will demolish da state
>Den I will become da state
>Thas rite

>>18120398
This is why I'm all in XMR and SUTER, good luck finding my money

>>18122625
I am interested in controlling all those around me as chattel slaves subject to my whims. I have gathered me and my friends along with a sizable amount of guns and ammo. How are you going to stop me from conquering you?

>>18122634
>but you don't get to just say "nuh uh" to the rule of law
Says who exactly? The government is increasingly impotent. In my life I have already broken most criminal, civil and financial laws, no fucks given.
The truth is, you can do anything you want as long as you are well-connected and aren't openly smug about it. The laws are only for the lower classes. They always were.

>>18120398
taxation is robbery

>>18122542
Duty is actually an advanced form of property which claims a person rather than an object.

>>18122706
>LARPing as member of the plutocracy
>pretending to be ancap

If you acknowledge that you have been able to break the law without consequence because of your connections, then are you pretty much proving the power a citizen has within a state that is aligned with their interests?

Why would you advocate for a stateless society when that would pretty much strip you of this power you now have over the majority?

>>18122714
Duty is a scam
there is no duty, it is a shaming tactic

>>18122692
it will be easy nigger, how come swizerland still stands or those little city states

>>18120398
One third to the people, one third to the government, one third for yourself.

>>18122742
We're talking about different types of duty or you're a schizo

If you are born to a father who fucks you in the ass as a 5 year old loli that's not rape because you consented by being born under his roof. Frankly you should stop complaining about your shitting issues and just move to a different property where you can agree to and live uder that persons rules instead. Good lord people what's not to understand.

>>18120398
Fake and gay.

Taxation is legit because the State has to provide you public shit. Defense, Judicial, Transport, etc.

Taxation is theft when taxpayers money is wasted. (Then, yes, it's currently mostly theft)

>>18122742
>how come switzerland still stands
>how come tiny micro-states still stand
They are utterly inconsequential on the global stage and useful as neutral entities for the purpose of finance and diplomacy.

How will that stop me from killing you and taking all your stuff with my armed gang?

>>18122760
theft is involuntary , by force , taking of someones stuff
taxation is theft cuck

>>18122652
>the state produces no value
"the state" is an abstract concept that doesnt exist in itself, only concrete instances of the abstract concept exist
>the state just takes
the state does take but also gives and provides, even if you are having a hard time to see that all of your surroundings are shaped to the better by everyones contribution (in the form of taxes).
>and destroys
destroys what exactly ? how do you come up with that ?
>the state is not the people, the state is some people
the state is formed by the people who participate in it, every member of a society is part of the state he/she lives in.
>the way that the state works is, it needs 4-12
4 to 12 of what ? the number of members is not really important for a state is it ?
>university to indoctrinates the lill cuck
education is the exact opposite of indoctrination. the knowledge it provides, gives everyone the ability to resist indoctrination.
information has no political affiliation.

>>18122773
I will cause you more damage that you will have gain

>>18120398
based and obviouspilled

>>18122753
>Muh Strawman

>>18122781
holly fuck you must be 19 or so
you are so fucking dumb

>>18122798
How? I have a greater ability to project force onto you with my gang than you do alone. It's literally a question of numbers and ability. As long as you have resources worth taking, I can muster forces willing to take it from you.

>>18122373
Sure, why are you mentioning those in a talk about taxation though? What's next, are you gonna describe how the Armenians were treated by the Turks?

>>18122823
how
with methods
I will make you sped more resources that you will gain

>>18122803
>strawman
If you are born *in a country that charges 50% taxes* that's not *theft*because you consented by being born *there*. Frankly you should stop complaining about your *poor faggotry* and just move to a different *country* where you can agree to and live under that persons rules instead. Good lord people what's not to understand.

>>18122741
I wouldn't call it "power". I would call it "being able to jump through hoops to get away with stuff"
It wouldn't strip mo of it, it would be cheaper and less stressful for me, while also giving the plebs a chance to do the same and elevate themselves.
Do you think avoiding taxes through a clusterfuck of offshores and shell companies is easy? Not even mentioning the lawyers leeching on my. It's a lot of hassle.
The wagies can't do the same and are literally paying my taxes tho. It would be win-win for everyone.

>>18122587
Imagine how fat you need to be to get crushed by mc donalds and coca cola

>>18122841
>you consented by being born *there*
>if you don't like it, move to Somalia

This stupid selfish mentality is whats going to destroy america.

>>18122839
>why are you mentioning those in a talk about taxation though
to elaborate how "free taxes" in the case of east germany come with a lot of very unpleasant context that also needs to be considered
everyone can decide for himself how the "no taxes" weighs up on all the downsides that i mentioned in
>>18122373

>>18120398
It is not a ripe if you talk some one in to suck your dick. Usury and lie is still legal so...
Freedom to believe = freedom to deceive
Truth does not require even imagine. But we follow told to us stories, act as it is real and get fucked for real.

>>18121713
Cringe and bootlickerpilled

>>18122867
America was founded on the ideal of freedom
taxation and other criminal acts is what has increasingly been destroying America for the last 200 years

>>18121713
>there's no such thing as a society without a government
imagine unironically believing this
some people just love the taste of boot

>>18122814
>you are so fucking dumb
ah yes, a very convincing point you are making here
ad hominems fly so much better than substantiate all the bullshit you have produced in this thread so far

>>18122840
How? I only need to spend one bullet on you and then I get all of your resources. That seems very economical to me, and promising a near equal share to others means I can defray any risk to myself by letting others shoulder it for me.

>>18122867
There's nothing selfish in following the dictates of justice.

>>18122930
Makes you wonder why the state doesn't shoot people and take all of their stuff, given that the state has all of the means which you presume yourself to have, plus the legitimisation of its coercion.

>>18121228
It’s not her body then. So not her choice.

>>18121370 Markets is palace where the rich take goods and services from poor.

((( Money ))) is a tool of Usury <-- that is what we all suffer from .

In order to have one rich you need a lots of poor
and a lots of suggested imagination (lie) to cover up obvious Usury.

We all have got 24h a day to exchange in a meaningful way and real value has to be measured by time that takes to create something valuable.

>>18122930
As in, if you're supposing that people will kill one another when there is a state wherein nobody has permission to kill anyone, how, exactly, do you suppose we improve this state of affairs by creating a class which is free to kill?

>>18122947
Because, for one, the state needs people to produce more resources which it can simply take to fund itself through taxation. Essentially shearing the sheep versus skinning it. Plus, the state has made a foundational agreement with the citizen that both acknowledge is in their mutual interest.

Without that society to underwrite it, however, in ancap land I have no reason not to simply take what I want from disparate individuals through a simple organized band of force. It's the same principal as a state that views itself as wanting the resources of a neighboring state with no international authority to answer to.

>>18121656
Not true. Exit tax from a country I didn’t choose to be born in.

>>18122947
they do, they just start outside the borders first

>>18122993
usury can exist without money
the basic concept of supply and demand extends beyond that

>We all have got 24h a day to exchange in a meaningful way and real value has to be measured by time that takes to create something valuable
this hardly makes any sense. is this a markov chain that produces posts ?

>>18122999
But they aren't free to kill, they are regulated by rule of law. You can argue that they pick and choose when they want to honor that arrangement, but then I ask how you suppose we improve that by simply taking away both the means and the incentive for them to follow it at all.

>>18122882
"Our new Constitution is now established, and has an appearance that promises permanency; but in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes"

>>18121518
Labor literally doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is supply and demand.
I work 12 hours a week maintaing legacy systems for boomers and get paid 8 times what some wagie working in a factory does for 40 hours a week.
The thing is that everyone can put plastic wheels on a bin assembly line while not even 1% can write a subroutine in COBOL.

The very same reason chad fucked hundreds of chicks or some thot make big bucks showing their asses, it's not about the effort but about what's in demand.

>>18121532 Back to Rule of the People (democracy) Gather together in to Popular Peoples Congress and execute in public place all 'Fish heads' 1% born psychopath .
We use to club 'fish heads' and as result, head no gov., no authority and no big owners.
Prosecute all grabbers for Usury and lie.
Hang in a public place every single person who dared to suggest to imagine to the crowd (lie).
So long Usury and lie is legal and glorified as virtue of the Gods chosen people who work in The Bank .

>>18123005
> the state needs people to produce more resources which it can simply take to fund itself through taxation

Then why wouldn't people do this in ancapistan, but simply less due to the fact that people don't accept it?

>Plus, the state has made a foundational agreement with the citizen that both acknowledge is in their mutual interest.
There exists no such agreement. I don't know why people keep claiming this.

>It's the same principal as a state that views itself as wanting the resources of a neighboring state
That's a point that raises a few interesting questions, actually: if free entities, subject to no absolute, unquestionable (earthly) authority, are bound to be in an absolutely unlivable condition of continuous conflict and destruction, then why is the coercion of the state upon its own citizens, as a matter of general course, so much larger than the coercion of state upon state?
Further, the degree to which these states are 'privately' owned, i.e. non-democratic, is the historical degree to which they've been reluctant to wage all-out destructive wars against the properties of one another.

>>18121518
>>18122993
So, an entrepreneur doesn’t provide value?
Is the office and supplies that an entrepreneur provides to his employees , necessary for them to do any work, worth any value?
Is not the time the entrepreneur spent, searching and securing for these resources, and searching and vetting employees worth any value?
Is not the time the entrepreneur spends procuring sales valuable?

>>18123045
I'm not particularly asking for any engineered anarchist society. I believe that we'd be better off if people fully believed in, and understood, and acted to defend, their own freedoms. The state is interlaced with a massive number of norms of freedom which we would undo if we simply toppled it tomorrow; something abhorrent would likely arise. The spirit of these times is not one of freedom. There are no large groups of people on this planet right now who are particularly capable of living in a state of freedom. Freedom does not exist amongst apes.

All I can say is what the effects of things might be, and it seems to me that the effects of freedom are undoubtedly superior. It would be false to draw from that that I want to topple everything which exists just to see my 'freedom' emerge from what remains. The suffering we receive from our inability to understand freedom is its own form of justice.

>>18122930
one bullet is a dream, it takes thousands and you will loose men
you will burn out before you get to the next town
only surrender monkeys are conquered

>>18122926
yes yes picture related, but just take a look at the nonsense you have written

>>18123041
>is this a markov chain?
No, that’s how communists actually think. Like something is wrong in their brain that they can’t do logic. Communists sound smart on paper. That is, they know a lot of big words. And then have a lot of arguments and responses memorized. But when you start to drill in deeper, it all falls apart. Watch Molyneux debates a Communist to see what I’m talking about.

>>18121787
Yes I totally understand your point .

Illusion that you can own something creates fear to loose and greed to gain more.

Ownership can be confirmed only if you able to protect it and have occupied. No one can own more then one can take care by oneself and using youth in uniform in order to protect more property then one able to occupy is nonsense causing conflict.

>>18123159
>the nonsense you have written
hmmm ? just point your finger at whats wrong. be more concrete, you want to convince with your shitty larp, right ?

>>18121792
You mean real Usury -ism and suggestion to imagine (lie) ?
Usury + lie = capitalism

>>18121804
politics is the way to attract peoples attention while business men cleaning their pockets.
It is not idealistic , but lucrative for a winners in expanse of losers.

>>18123225
I said theory, schizo. Every 'ought' is Ideal.

>>18121818
Truth is practical, physical, technical as life it self.

>>18122882
>America was founded on the ideal of freedom
even the founding fathers hated small-government types

>>18123192
OK *ssiiippps* here we go

>the state produces no value
"the state" is an abstract concept that doesnt exist in itself, only concrete instances of the abstract concept exist
- true and not related to production of value, state is still bad

>the state just takes
the state does take but also gives and provides, even if you are having a hard time to see that all of your surroundings are shaped to the better by everyones contribution (in the form of taxes).
- the states only takes, it pays to other to create with 20% of the stolen money to do a photo op

>and destroys
destroys what exactly ? how do you come up with that ?
- the state will not cure the virus, but will put you in jail and fine you, only destructive means always

>the state is not the people, the state is some people
the state is formed by the people who participate in it, every member of a society is part of the state he/she lives in.
- I am not a member of your cult, I do not vote, I do not want to vote, I want you to die, and I will get you dead

>the way that the state works is, it needs 4-12
4 to 12 of what ? the number of members is not really important for a state is it ?
- from kinder garden at 4 to end of high school at 12 grade the state mandatory has your little cunt

>university to indoctrinates the lill cuck
education is the exact opposite of indoctrination. the knowledge it provides, gives everyone the ability to resist indoctrination.
information has no political affiliation.
- university is a scam, it is obedience certificate

>>18121624
I mostly agree. But in the same context public goods without tax are theft of service. The real issue is inability to opt out of public services.

>>18122269
the problem with large governments in the US is it puts out blanket "solutions" to any and al problems. When it comes to certain issues it doesn't make sense.
What's so bad about states having more power.
I like small centralized over giant centralized

AKA redpill me go.

>>18123005
Yes, trust the state goy, they are 100% trustworthy and never do anything wrong.

www.businessinsider.com/true-government-conspiracies-2013-12%3famp

>>18123240 You did not say anything = no observable information exchanged

Brain farting in public..., shame on your mama.

>>18123301
ok you are at the bargaining stage
state is a failed concept
just like religion

>>18123299
>public goods without tax are theft of service
Wat. So if you were transporting something using your truck as a business, and I robbed you at gunpoint, but you just drove off. You have committed theft of service because...? How is it theft of service for not paying taxes?

>>18123301
The issue is that once we admit that people as individuals cannot exist in a state of freedom, and as such need a caste which is capable of ruling over them categorically, then we must employ this same judgement whenever we're faced with the interactions of two equal 'sovereign states', there must become an entity above them which will stop them falling into a state of anarchy and destroying one another. If we don't admit this, then our premise which justified the state in the first place is incorrect.
Given the leveraged position of the highest entity vis-a-vis the lower entities, its ability to coerce and not be coerced, it will tend to centralise power in its hands until the level of state has changed from a local to federal one. This will then come into contact with national states and, given our premise, require supra-national oversight, the supra-national entity having the ability to coerce the nation states so that they do not fall into a state of anarchy vis-a-vis one another.

The state tends towards a totalitarian global order.

>>18123363
i'm open minded yeh

>>18123363
ancap is a concept
state has been the apex of human social organisation for about 10k years

>>18123366
It’s the centralization and mandatoryness, about Statism, that bothers me most. If I have a psychopath for a boss, I can just go choose a different boss. But if I have a psychopath for a government ruler. It’s much harder for me, to move to a different government. Especially, if there was a one work government, there would be no escaping from it.

>>18123412
actually
the state only really exist because of the romans
and rome was just bunch of city states racket anyways
kingship is not the same as statehood
modern statehood was born out of WW1 when nationalism was invented

>>18123433
>there was no state before the romans

>>18123429
but you get to vote
so obey goy

>>18123412
It doesn't make sense to refer to all of those things as states. They had little relation to the thing now above us in terms of accepted function. For the majority of history, the state has been accepted as a 'solidification' of natural hierarchy, the natural formation of a structure which reflects the inequalities of the human species, and was nestled within, and became quite inseparable from, the social hierarchy itself.

It was not an arbitrary means to 'create' law, engineer peoples, and to level hierarchies into dust.

>>18123447
correct
no seriously look it up
the romans were the first to have a real state
kingship is not the same as a state

>>18120398
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6H8mBm4_SLw

>>18123451
i see nothing that disproves modern states are removed from "natural social hierarchies" as you put them

>>18123364
Implied military and police protection aren't something you can opt out of. Even if you could on paper you can't avoid the benefits of them. That having been said you're not wrong I'm just playing devil's advocate. The benefits you incur are a result of birth into a given jurisdiction. It's as wrong as say racism but it's effective and pragmatic hence it continues. Simply a lot in life, the environment around you would need to change to affect it's efficacy as opposed to you changing position as an individual.

>>18123457
lmao

>>18123263
>the states only takes
no, the state redistributes.
>the state will not cure the virus
which virus are you talking about ? corona ? state funds for example research of vaccines in that case, which will reduce the misery the virus creates.
>but will put you in jail and fine you
generally speaking, punishment is a necessity to prevent society from falling apart. cant let people who do harm to others roam free.
also force means nothing without the means and willingness to use it.
A state that is incapable of delivering punishment to those who act destructive to society is a weak state.
>only destructive means always
no, the state provides a stable construct for its members, also infrastructure and a safety net for those who are less blessed than others to still exist. nothing about this is even remotely destructive.
>I am not a member of your cult
state is not a cult, fundamentally different concepts.
>I do not vote, I do not want to vote
so you dont even participate but still complain ?
>I want you to die, and I will get you dead
doubt it, but even if you kill me, the state will have my back.
threaten me, and by law the state will take action to prevent me from lunatics like you, harm me, and you will receive punishment, by the manifestation of morality of a state which is law.
>from kinder garden at 4 to end of high school at 12 grade the state mandatory has your little cunt
this phrase has no coherent thought and hardly makes any sense.
>university is a scam
you can learn something at university, knowledge gives you power, wheres the scam with that ?
>it is obedience certificate
thats just like your opinion, for some degrees that might be true.
obedience is still a valuable asset to society, your ignorance is not.

>>18123366
>we need gov to govern over groups of people cause anarchy is unsustainable.

k. check
.
>smaller governments can not be left to their own devices because they will anarchically compete with other small governments, so they need a government over them.

that's based on an assumption.

>then That over-arching government is going to need governing.

cause that's the government that keeps going to war and shiet.

>>18123429

If centralization is bad at the state level, it's bad at the fed level.

My biggest issue with too small of governments is that my HOA thinks they can tell me how to wip my ass. I get it. It just doesn't seem like a great argument for putting all our chips in one basket to make all the rules for every single state in the US. Rural people need guns, people in cities are protected by police. Should there really be a law that prevents rural folk from getting guns to protect their farms?

TL;DR? good.

>>18123463
Then you admit that politicians are our natural betters, and that we should aspire to be them (or aspire to be central bankers) due to their virtues?

>>18123503
corruption is universally bad at any level.

The Strong must tax the Weak.

>>18120398
It is not theft because as an ancap you should believe that inheritance is moral.
The country that you live in is the owner of everything under its domain and therefore can charge whatever that it wants from people.
HOWEVER, since all modern countries were built through warfare, it is moral for you to kill government agents when striving towards your own independence.

>>18123501
>that's based on an assumption.
Yes, it's based on the exact same assumption which you make when you say that groups of people who are not ruled by an overarching entity cannot interact with one another without falling into violent anarchy and thus need a state.

>>18123503
they reflect the virtues and vices of the society that produced them.

>>18123517
Weakness is its own tax.

>>18123529
I partially agree; to the degree that a society is good, its hierarchies reflect its virtues, to the degree that it is bad, its hierarchies reflect its vices. I don't believe that anything can be done about what we have.

>>18123527
i understood and agree.
but then i said that by that logic, the government that oversees that state government interaction needs a government over it to interact with other overarching governments... this goes on and on until what you really have is... one giant state.

>>18123557
so youve placed blame wrongly. the state is just an organisation, its interests reflect the interests of the people in it.

>>18123492
the state is a cult that only has power over the indoctrinated
the way we defeat that is by making it spend more that it gains

>>18123578
I'm not blaming the state, I'm nonetheless against it. I blame the spiritual degeneration of the people, the state being a manifestation of this. A spiritually advanced people is free from coercion.