/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>18061811
Labor theory of value posits that innovation just springs from the ground miraculously at regular intervals when in reality advances in productive technology are entirely driven by individuals who seek to employ their intellectual property and its material fruits for profit.

The entire concept of the labor theory of value is so dumb that it's amazing that the works of Marx ended up anywhere other than the trash. If it were correct you end up with scenarios of asymptotically infinite and negative infinite value.

>>18061867
Innovation comes from hard work. Work is labor. LVT looking correct again...

>>18061811
>If we all stopped working there'd be no economy.
Right. The earth, and all it's natural resources would disappear. Fruit trees would stop growing. Caves and other natural homes would disappear.

>>18061811
>How the fuck is the labor theory of value wrong
Imagine the going wage is $10 an hour and you gave me a piece of wood and asked me to whittle it into a flute. Because I'm an unskilled retard I spent 200 hours of work on it and pic related is the result. Why would you inherently value that at $2,000 (200 hours x $10 an hour) just because my labour went into creating it? You would likely value it at $0, or near enough.

>what would the alternative even be
Marginalism.

>>18061988
You need labor to extract those resources

>>18061811
Because I don't give a fuck how much you worked to dig and fill back that filled hole, it ain't worth shit.

>>18061989
Nigger this is an LVT board not your faggy LTV

>>18061811
>SOCIALLY NECESSARY LABOR TIME

>>18061811
Nothing is inherently valuable and value is only derived we two parties agree to it in a transaction

I spent an hour eating taco bell and then smearing my shit on a canvas, does that work have the same fundamental value as the guy who was laying the foundation for a house?

>>18062029
That's categorically not what the ltv implies, it's a dumb strawman you believed

>>18061989
Get your TLAs straight! LVT is Land Value Taxation, which is a sensible policy.

LTV is stupid because the amount something is worth is unrelated to the amount of labour it takes to produce it. LTV was a sensible approximation for calculation convenience (though not a good theoretical basis) in the preindustrial era, when the production of nearly everything was labour intensive. But once mechanization set in, the correlation weakened.

>>18061811

labor theory of value held water in agricultural societies where capital was not present or played very little role.

>>18061811
Labor creates an undefined amount of value, but the market defines how much value the worker's labor is worth

>>18061811
Labor theory of value does not take scarcity/supply and demand into consideration.
Two wood chairs made exactly the same way and that take the exact same amount of labor hours to make but one chair is made out of a wood that is much rarer but still takes the same amount of labor hours as the other chair, according to the labor theory of value both chairs are worth the same even though one chair is made out of a much rarer wood.
Thinking it is acceptable to charge for or be charged for digital distribution, which is infinite for all intents and purposes, is Marxist. Paying and charging for digital distribution follows the labor theory of value. If you think it is acceptable to pay or be charged for digital distribution then you are mentally ill and/or a subhuman.
>>18061867
>intellectual property
Copyright, patent, and trade secret laws should be abolished. They do the exact opposite of their stated goal in the US constitution which is to promote progress in science and art. SED TVs are a good example, we were denied the superior TV technology because of a licensing lawsuit. If anyone wanted to restart development on them and finally release them then they would have to spend millions, possible tens of millions buying the patents from the owner (that is if they are willing to sell) before they can even start development. Same thing with Tapestry Media holographic disc, it could hold 1.6tb on one disc in 2011 with barebones funding and a sabotaging CEO, now Apple who makes a lot of money from charging for downloads owns the patents but they will obviously never develop it, someone would have to spend millions (possibly tens of millions if they are even willing to sell) before they can legally start development or release them. Trademark is fine to give consumer a way to distinguish between products, but even trademark needs stripped down
Contracts would still exist and being first to market is an advantage. IP law also infringes on real property rights

Read Hayek.

>>18062272
No it didn't, read here:
>>18062558
>Two wood chairs made exactly the same way and that take the exact same amount of labor hours to make but one chair is made out of a wood that is much rarer but still takes the same amount of labor hours as the other chair, according to the labor theory of value both chairs are worth the same even though one chair is made out of a much rarer wood.

>>18062238
based and landpilled

>>18062008
>You need labor to eat fruit
lel

>>18062616
You need labor to extract said fruit.

>>18061867
>innovation only for profit
Explain FOSS then

>>18062558
I meant ip in a more transcendental sense. The product of the labor of the mind, if you will.

>>18062689
Charity.

>>18062164
Yeah, Marx had to backpedal on that one and specify that only socially desirable labor counts. It's almost like he's on to something.

>>18062669
Do you know how fruit works? You can literally just eat it off the tree.

>>18062809
LTV is not a premise, it is a conclusion. It says that labour has basic value because of socially necessary labour.

>>18062558
LTV doesnt say any of that.
If you understood marx youd know that price =/= value

>>18062485
Markets dont define shit. They are mechanisms for value discovery. What value is, is for you to argue.
Which is what marx does with ltv

>>18061811
>How the fuck is the labor theory of value wrong and what would the alternative even be?
If you value shit on how long it takes to make there's no reason to be efficient. If I can fuck off and build a car or whatever in 10 hours instead of 2 hours since 1 car will sell the same as 5 cars it's human nature to do that. It's called soldiering.

>>18061867
>advances in productive technology are entirely driven by individuals who seek to employ their intellectual property and its material fruits for profit.

No, that is part of it, but you are ignoring dreams and wishes. Musk wants to get to our asses to Mars. That is his dream. That advanced our overall technology level. His dream.

marx didn't invent labour value he takes it from liberal economists
ricardo and smith iirc (fuck those 2 tho)

>>18065423
They didn't invent it either, it dates from Aristotle in its simplest form. Marx developed it from Ricardo who defined economic classes.

>>18062255
kek

>>18061811
The theory that claims value is subject, and is the right one. IF YOU EVER THINK OTHERWISE try to explain the case of Belle Delphine selling her bathwater for $50.000 goybucks around the world to coomers, wealth does not have a relationship with labor. It has been proven again and again and again

>>18065545
Subjetive* fuck autocorrector

>>18065545
Well that depends on how you define labour. Belle had to dress up and act like a retard

>>18061867
Innovation is natural. Oil industry has set us behind 1000 years.

>>18061811
Value is inherently subjective. You can’t assert something has an objective value that isn’t relative to someone else’s opinion

Marx used 3 terms:
Value
Use value
Trade value

For him value is a mere measurement of time, and trade value the measurement of price

>>18065626
Subjectivity is a spectrum, not a binary condition.
Value requires people, land and labour as prerequisites. It isnt based on whatever the fuck you feel like (most of the time)

>>18061867
Literally everything about this is wrong. Ypu dont understand LTOV

>>18065696
>It isnt based on whatever the fuck you feel like
It is, you can see it clearly in markets with a strong monopoly player. They force producers to work even at loss because there isn't another alternative. They sell it the final product at whatever profit they feel like

Labor theory of value is so stupid that anyone who believes it shows they are too irrational or insane to be argued with

>>18061811
Dig a hole
Fill it back in again
Nothing of value was produced
Labour was expended
Labour doesn’t necessarily produce value
QED

>>18065799
Thats price, not value.
In case you havent noticed, money printer goes brrrrrrrerr

>>18061867
>advances in productive technology are entirely driven by individuals who seek to employ their intellectual property and its material fruits for profit.
> who seek to employ their intellectual property and its material fruits for profit.
You talk like intellectual property is something natural.