/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>17733310
I will never apologize to a boomer so stupid that he looks at rapid industrialization and concludes that labor will grow to be infinite in value rather than the opposite

>>17733310
You were right I was wrong I pledge myself to your cause now unironically

>>17733310
here have a (you), since this is a bait thread like all the other ones you keep spamming you fucking poltard

>>17733310
based and red pilled

I’m sorry

>>17733310
I'M SORRY

>>17733310
пpocтитe пoжaлyйcтa

Sorry senpai

>>17733641
Marx was German lol.

>>17733933
Duh..but we let him down for oligarch scum.

Communism doesn't seem so bad now..

>>17733310
Ok boomer

>>17733385
What do you expect from a hypocritcal Jew lives with upper class Brits. Hasn't done a day's work in his entire life.

>>17733385
Boomer can’t understand the labor theory of value and deflects his boomer status by calling a 200 year old man a boomer

>>17734323
Marx was literally a 19th century NEET he lived off of gibs from Engels and those that spied in him said he would just get drunk and do jack shit all day

>>17734536
>Marx was a NEE-

>>17734438
Laborino theorino

>>17734438
misrepresenting your own position when you get owned is a very boomer thing to do, boomer

>>17733310
Fuck off Cramer

>>17734659
NOT MY HECKIN SURPLUS VALUE NOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>17733310
>hurr material conditions drive historical progress
the mindset of a literal child, what a retard

>>17734758
NOOO YOU CAN'T JUST TAKE THAT MONEY FOR YOURSELF I WORKED TO PRODUCE THAT YOU JUST SIT AND COLLECT THE MONEY YOU CAN'T DO THAT NOOOOO

>>17734758
YOU MONSTER HOW DARE YOU MY POWER TO THE PEOPLERINOOOOOOOOOO

>there are people around right now who unironically think that capital and division of labor are the main drivers of conflict in the world today

>>17734536
Engels was the superior economist desu
>actually ran a textiles firm
>instituted profit sharing and employee investment policies
>toured the barricades in 1848
>lived with two sisters for 30+ years and nailed them both
>was able to provide for marx's family
>cautioned Lenin against Stalin and Marxist communism

>>17734810
What drives historical progress then?

>>17734914
Wtf is going on here?

>>17734715
The only thing I’m misrepresenting is my heterosexuality by shoving my cock in your ass.

>>17734977
*spreads it*

For what?
You were proven dead wrong.
This crisis is the result of central banking.

You didn't predict that, Mises did.

All communists need to be burned alive in cages.

>>17733310

sorry papa

>>17734949
Countless things, mostly biology.

>>17735014
>All communists need to be burned alive in cages.
Why are you so butthurt when those damn GOMMIES are wrong anyway? You scared?

>>17734977
Mark Anthony says there's nothing gay about you fucking. Getting fucked however...

>>17735014
>ancopes think anyone cares about muh central banking

>>17735014
>Capitalism inevitably goes into self-destruct mode without central banking.
>Capitalism inevitably goes into self-destruct mode with central banking.

>>17735063
>You scared?
What would I be scared of? lmao
I just want communists to die.

>>17734947
stalin was the best thing to happen to communism. a system will never work without a strong man to guide it, and lenin was a pussy and a liberal

>>17735163
>I just want communists to die.
Why though? You must be scared of them.

>>17735164

stalin did absolutely nothing wrong but lenin won the revolution, how dare you

>>17735152
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU CAN'T ACCURATELY PINPOINT THE EXACT CAUSE OF THE RECESSION

>>17735161
>>Capitalism inevitably goes into self-destruct mode without central banking.
Except it unironically doesn't. You're absolutely retarded. Periods in history without central banking were quite stable. Sweden had such a system for a long time.
The 1800s in america were a semi-free banking period so there were still recessions caused by interventionism.
https://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Panics

>>17735164
why not just be a monarchist in that case

>>17735161
>Capitalism inevitably goes into self-destruct mode without central banking.
nope, that's a fake news meme spread by commies

>>17735198
>you want rapists to die, you must be scared of them
?

>>17733310
Fuck off shill.
That memecoin died 80 years ago....along with 10 million people.

>>17735259
without a central bank a capitalistic government can’t fund wars, which inevitably leads to assrape and dissolution of the state in favor of another, so same outcome

>>17733310
dilate

>>17735358
Yeah, if you want rapists to die you are afraid of getting raped. Now why would you be afraid of OBVIOUSLY WRONG commies?

>>17735307
you dont say the quiet part out loud

>>17735384
>capitalistic
>government
pick one, and only one

>>17733310
He is still wrong and always will be

>>17735384
>without a central bank a capitalistic government can’t fund wars
Kek

>>17735423
Your same logic applies to communists that want to kill capitalists.

>>17735452
If I pick only capitalism, then it defaults to feudalism, because no central authority to enforce contracts and protect private property.

>>17735452
>>MUH HECKIN' FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE MARKETERINO

>>17733310
I loled

>>17735465
wrong

>>17735539
So you admit that only capitalists should be afraid. That means people who aren't capitalists shouldn't be afraid, right?

>>17735056
Which is a material condition

>>17735423
Also when have communists ever been correct about anything? Their system has failed every single time.

>>17735573
What free market?
We have central banking now.
Why are communists such massive bootlickers that want to work long hours for little pay for an inefficient state? lmao
Imagine thinking surplus value is real and you are getting it back by having the state monopolize production and control your life.

>>17735650
>So you admit that only capitalists should be afraid
No, sorry your reading comprehension is terrible.

>>17733310
I'M SORRY KARL
CHINA PLS GIBS VENTILATOR

>>17735657
Not in the way marx described. He didn't understand instincts and the human brain. Discoveries in that field came way later.

>>17735014
In the communist manifesto, the most pea-brained normie piece of Marxist literature. Marx observed how capitalism, no matter what form, will always experience these kinds of panics. Such large accumulations if wealth have to come with a decline sometimes to keep the porky system healthy. This was observed like 150 years ago and it still holds true.

>>17733385
He literally wrote an essay on that called On Machines or something like that.

>>17735573
MY CENTRALLY PLANNED ECONOMYERINOOOOOOOOOOO

>>17735687
>commies love the capitalist state
Holy heckin' cope.

>>17735719
Which haven't proved him wrong

>>17734438
ok boomer

>>17735722
Recessions are caused by central banking and government intervention.
Not any magic inherent properties of capitalism itself, that's insane.

>>17735771
>no, not the capitalist state, the socialist state, which is somehow magically different and doesn't cause massive problems every single time
Why do you bootlickers even exist?

>>17735838
>thinking commies even want a state
Illiterate and braindead.

>>17735756
We got no problems over here fren. Good ol central planning has dealt with corona pretty handily. Decentralized western porky states though...

>>17735838
>Recessions are caused by central banking and government intervention.
Which is wrong

>>17735821
But I did. Marxists think the only real material conditions are changes in technology. They ignore literally all of the other "material conditions".
Also saying the facts on the ground effect the economy, culture and state of the time isn't a very profound thought.

>>17735869
>we told them the state would wither away
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Imagine thinking a massive authoritarian state would EVER wither away.
This is how stupid you people are for falling for this totalitarian garbage used by dictatorships.
Go move to north korea, I know you people actually love that place.

>>17735869
>Implying they won't use the state to reach communism
fake and gay

>>17735906
Ahh yes, the decentralized US government and decentralized central banks
lmao

>>17735942
Austrian business cycle theory has yet to be disproven.

>>17735950
>Imagine thinking a massive authoritarian state would EVER wither away.
You mean precisely what liberals through about Pinochet?

>heres ur corona test, that'll be $1099.99 plus tip
>DOG BLESS THE FREEDOM MARGET :---DDDDDDDD

>>17735980
Marx wanted an authoritarian state which he thought would somehow "wither away".
The entire thing is a massive scam used by autocrats to seize power.

>>17735950
>Marxists think the only real material conditions are changes in technology
No he doesn't

>>17735950
>he thinks the state would wither away on its own
Just admit you haven't read anything by him.

>>17735993
>Austrian business cycle theory has yet to be disproven
It's unfalsifiable there is nothing to prove. It's hokey.

>>17735722
and yet Marxists still struggle to come up with empirical evidence corroborating their favorite germoid’s fanfictions
>>17735750
read between the lines my nigger

>>17735569
>what is polycentric law
hurr fucking durr
go read some Bastiat, moron

https://youtu.be/emnYMfjYh1Q
Also reminder that LTV is falsifiable (and correct)

>>17736022
>bawwww liberals
It's always funny when you bootlickers use that term.

>pinochet
When did we ever say the state would wither away under pinochet?
At least pinochet restored democracy after doing what was necessary.

>>17736027
Americans hate the free market, they love central banking.

>>17736040
Come on now, marx and marxists almost never talk about biology, it's almost entirely about changes in technology with them.

>>17736046
I have, but it's Marxists who haven't read marx.
You people actually think the state would wither away, you're actually retarded.

>>17736089
You could try to disprove it logically.

>>17736156
>cockshott
OH NO NO NO NO NO

>>17733310
As usual he’s proven right once again
>>17733385
You’re the one who’s acting like boomer here lad

>>17736157
>I have
What have you read, anon?

>>17736157
>marx and marxists almost never talk about biology
Because there is usually no reason to bring it up

>>17733310
desu he was right all along. I'm becoming a commie now (unironic), the last recession was bad and this one will ruin 2 generations of people and savings of countless older ones. im done with the yoyo of capitalism, im just fucking done

>>17736156
Cockshott is a fucking moron and has been refuted by Austrians.

https://cdn.mises.org/qjae7_1_6.pdf

>>17736214
The manifesto, critique of the gotha program.

>>17735452
Its not REAL Capitalism! Real Capitalism wouldn't need a state to defend itself! And it wouldn't crash! Yeah! That'll show em!

>>17736156
wrong
>>17736204
no u

>>17736252
Austrians have been refuted by Cockshott

>>17733385
Literal retard

>>17736104
>and yet Marxists still struggle to come up with empirical evidence corroborating their favorite germoid’s fanfictions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emnYMfjYh1Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ji_3v5yWLg

>>17736248
Central banking and government intervention causes recessions and you're retarded enough to beg for MORE government control?

>>17736275
Nope lol.
Refute the pdf I posted.

>>17736252
>The manifesto, critique of the gotha program'
Come back to me when you've read Value, Price and Profit and Wage Labour and Capital.

>>17736300
Summarize it. I can post links too but who cares about that. Give me your own words.

>>17736289
Wrong.

>>17736252
that critique has been refuted like a million times and its from the 90s AND, it literally has nothing to do with the LTV

>>17736279
based
>>17736289
Didn’t click, not watching junior marxists masturbate themselves, thanks

Reminder that this thread is being raided by leftypol as we speak.

Imagine raiding a business board with ideological bullshit just for getting attentions.

>>17733385
holy shit you are stupid.

>central banking cause recessions
The long depression never happened?
The American economy never fucked up before 1913 when the Fed was created?

luxury gay space communism when

>>17736340
No it hasn't, you people are just coping.
This Austrian critique is fairly recent

>>17736347
you can't raid your own thread retard

>>17736371
>gets called out
>”no ur dum”
marxists are so whiny and predictable
>>17736401
SOON
and there better be catgirls

>>17736307
Why do commies think anytime cares about their irrelevant debunked theories?
They're just a cargo cult.

>muh Austrians
hokey and outdated

>>17736485
Not debunked. Falsified right here. You are just ideologically brainwashed.
>>17736289

>>17736485
>debunking something you haven't even read
I'm glad I'm not this retarded.

what did the austrians have to say about an entire economic system collapsing because a chinese dude ate a bat then sneezed on someone?

Hey gommies.

This obviously wasn’t real capitalism because they had central banking.
Later skaters.

>>17736557
>wasting his time reading garbage
I’m glad he’s not that retarded either

>>17736485
Not debunked. Proven right here. You are just ideologically brainwashed.
>>17736289

IM SORRY MR. MARX, PLEASE BE GENTLE

>>17736573
COPE

>>17736598
>it's garbage because I said so, even though I literally never even opened it
Extreme levels of cope.

>>17736598
>Claiming something is garbage before reading it and knowing what it is
This is what it is like to have ideology drilled into your head. Imagine having this level of lack of self awareness.

>>17736562
>>17736573

>>17736600
>I'm not ideologically brainwashed

Do commies actually think this recession is somehow the result of a free market or something?
Why do they ignore the trillions of dollars printed by the Federal Reserve and pumped into the stock market creating malinvestment?

>>17733385
Shut the fuck up FtX

>>17733310
>thinking Coronavirus has anything to do with Darwinism

>>17736707
https://youtu.be/3E_46XobpEQ

>>17736707
Are you unaware that without "evil gubmint intervention" there wouldn't be any "free" market to begin with

>>17736707
>tfw porkies are resorting to not real capitalism arguments after making fun of commies for doing the same

>>17733385
the post that destroyed Communism

>>17736707
look at this retard everyone

>>17736600
>he still can't refute the Austrian critique of cockshitt

>MUH LABOUR VOUCHERS

LMAO

>>17736651
>>17736654
>yes you must read these syphilitic rantings of a dead germoid and debunk them to my satisfaction even though my retarded predecessors have already spent over a century ideologically insulating his ideals from all criticism or you’re not a TRUE intellectual like me
cucks detected

Ah is it shill O'Clock already?

>>17736707
we don't lol

>>17736787
>p-porkies
OH NO NO NO NO NO NO
Imagine being part of this religious cult.

>>17736874
What cult bro?

>>17736825
99.99% pure crystallized cope
enjoy ur red portfolio my dude
marxist gang reporting in, hedged my shit 10 months ago and now laughing all the way to my money

>>17736874
You seem pretty mad. Austrians are retarded and laughed out of wherever they go. Gonna enjoy porks whine for government intervention to save them. M-m-muh free marget

>>17736980
nice brah, when are you buying back in

>>17736811
>everyone is a retard if they don't follow my normalfag edgy college ideology
>you're all just stupid

The existence of leftists here is proof that 4chan is normalfag central now. Whereas it has always been a place many college students post on it use to the students with actually fresh and interesting ideas. Not the same ideas that their professors told them in their sociology class.

>>17736821
Well clearly capitalism is working out so very well.

>>17736783
Wrong capitalism has existed many times in history without government intervention
>>17736811
>no argument
Enjoy being cucked by central banks

>>17737014
>it won't be capitalism if we ban money lol

>>17737014
Why yes actually it is. That anime you posted for example is pure capitalism. The entirely of Japans success as a nation is due to capitalism or they'd be backwards shit farmers like the Chinese.

>>17737013
>muh sociology classes
>muh cultural marks
lmao, COPE HARDER

>>17737014
Central banking isn't working out so well, it's destroying capitalism.

LTV is bullshit, the conclusions don't follow from the premises (which also aren't true), and Marx constantly fucks with the scale he's considering throughout the derivation. You can't honestly believe in it without being brain dead.

>>17737013
You mean 4cuck?

>>17736941
/leftypol/
The literal reddit image board colony.

>>17736573
This but unironically and it makes communists SEETHE hard.

Communists blame every problem that governments create on capitalism lol

>>17735444
WHY NOT JUST BE A MONARCHIST IN THAT CASE

>>17737103
Where do you think you currently are? go back to your bunker with your fellow plebbitor where you can all larp as oldfags.

>>17737118
The best excuse is when they go 'well obviously the capitalist control the state and government lolololol'.

>>17735423
>*murders the tsar and his family*

>>17737071
ITT: **snff sniff** ohhh yeah, I love my own farts **sniff sniff**

What this faggot doesn't talk about is the people dying in the street all over the planet, the people about to loose jobs, houses, entire life savings, all in the blink of an eye.

The kids who live in the street who get hunted down by mercenaries hired by the rich in Columbia because they aren't desirable by the rich or the slums in Brazil; literal cardboard sky scrapers.

All this exceptionalism so some coomer can preserve his delusion of one day being a bagillionair.

>>17737175
Based.

>>17737143
I know where i am, sometime i came back to see how ruined it is

Also, without the derivation of the LTV being correct, the value of it is as a theory becomes based entirely on it's predictive power. In which case, Marxists should just join the Chicago school and go full empiricism already.

>>17737006
I went all in 100% physical gold a while ago, I think I'll sell back in 1-3 years (working off 2008 gold price patterns)

>>17736437
>https://cdn.mises.org/qjae7_1_6.pdf
dude, its literally dated 1993 and also its a response to cockshotts writing on planned economies, not whether the LTV explains prices in a capitalist economy. are you literally too fucking autistic to read your own paper before posting it?

>>17737216
hot take but : the economics aspect of marx aren't the most important, except maybe for the tendency of the rate of profit to fall but u can already find that in ricardo more or less
what is more interesting about marx is his social-historical vision
seeing people here argue about LTV is kind of embarrassing

>>17733310
when times are good on biz, everyone is an edgy fucking ancap. when it goes to shit suddenly we have marx threads creeping out of the woodwork. biz ...

>>17737159
I legitimately can't tell if this is sarcasm

>>17736111
Feature of Feudalism.

>>17737263
Without the economics aspect, why should I believe anything he says that's based on it?

Imagine being a communist. You are a normalfag who thinks he isn't. You geniunly believe that you are rebelling against society despite the fact that all media and rich elites push you in that direction. You actually think you're an edgy because you believe that its hip and cool to believe that all normalfags deserve to live. You are the eternal nerd trying to be cool by researching the popular kids and emulating them in the hopes that you can show them the light because clearly their misguided.

Its really a wonder how continue to persist in trying to prove that they are cool like the popular kid despite failing every time. Rather than just be themselves they continue to create a fake persona.

>>17737213
>larping as le oldfag
Its not even a secrete that 90% of /leftypol/ is plebbit when your people scoured all of the leftist plebbit subreddits begging for traffick.

>>17734536
Based lifestyle

>>17737355
>the media promotes communism guise xddddd

>>17737307
Because economics is bougeois pseudoscience that seeks only to maintain the status quo

>>17737355
>Guys the media (((elites))) are turning the youths into commies because the new star wars has a black guy in it trust me
Lmao seethe harder dork

>>17737307
Well if that's a serious question, the most important point of marxist economics is that streamlining production lines/logistics actually makes shit less profitable per unit... since output dramatically increases & other people compete
so over time more and more products/services are made by less & less workers within a market increasingly concentrated (how many 21st industrial bakeries to handle as many customers as 19th century traditional bakeries?)
Capitalism IS unsustainable and doomed to break down, we've been delaying the inevitable for a while but wages need to go down, exploitation needs to go up. we're reaching the end of the story and i unironically think marx was right around those topics, much more than labour theory of value

>>17737355
Are you 13?

>>17737263
>what is more interesting about marx is his social-historical vision
the Marxist paradigm is freud-tier fairy dust that has bastardized critique and slowed progressivism to a crawl. It’s pop-philosophy that has dragged on way too long and exists in le marketplace of ideas only due to the violence of its autistic supporters despite their disingenuous claims to the contrary

>>17737355
I just want healthcare man

>>17737355
>the elites are secret communists
Ok, boomer

>>17735164
Stalin ruined the USSR for the rest of its existence, and is still the primary reason communism has such a shit reputation.

>>17737355
>all media and rich elites push you in that direction
The media gives tame centrists like Bernie Sandera flack lol you're a moron

>>17737205
Get a load of this moralfag

Honestly, the Austrian school is basically the only one that can get things correct as a result of their methods. The more variables a system has, the easier it is to find incorrect models that fit the data. And the fact that fucking with the market doesn't decrease the amount of variables, but rather increases it implies that you can't do empirical methodology like variable reduction. Hence, you need to take a fully rationalistic axiomatic approach: find what is unfalsifiable, and base your theories on that. That's what the Austrians do, and it's the best methodology to actually coming to the correct result in the shortest time.

>>17733310
>leftypol shill thread is still up

>>17735452
The state is what maintains absentee ownership of property you absolute smoothbrain. "Anarcho"-capitalism is fundamentally impossible

>>17737414
Then you have a shallow view of economics. There are many different schools with many different takes, you should read up on them. It's not uniform. Marxist economics are still economics, as invalid as the theories are.

>>17737205
>giving a shit about the lives of normalfags.
>pretending to give a shit about the lives of normalfags on a anonymous image board.

Millions of third world faggots starving to death because they come from post communist countries. African countries that embrace free economics and communism are actually doing very well as do asian countries that embrace capitalism. Look at china, then look at Japan. Look at noko then look at soko. look at north America then look at south America. Look at ex usssr states and then look at western Europe. Do you see a pattern?

>>17737457
you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

>>17735164
Nah.

"For forty-three years of my conscious life I have remained a revolutionist; for forty-two of them I have fought under the banner of Marxism. If I had to begin all over again I would of course try to avoid this or that mistake, but the main course of my life would remain unchanged. I shall die a proletarian revolutionist, a Marxist, a dialectical materialist, and, consequently, an irreconcilable atheist. My faith in the communist future of mankind is not less ardent, indeed it is firmer today, than it was in the days of my youth.

Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full.”

>>17737491
>find what is unfalsifiable, and base your theories on that
God wants us to abandon our material posessions, stop pursuing mamon and live our lives according to the bible. If we disobey god, he will punish us.

>>17737523
common misconception, but not even remotely correct
law is what maintains property rights, and law does not require any central authority like a state
again, go read Bastiat, you brain damaged buffoon

>>17737518
Its hilarous when they all pretend to be from here when they clearly don't get it on a fundamental level. People living room temperature lives never understand what its really like to sleep in the cold.

>>17737205
>The kids who live in the street who get hunted down
How can i profit from this?

>>17737491
Sounds like theology to me.

>>17737471
Stalin transformed a backwater semi-feudal state into a world super power decimated by civil war in 23 years, all while winning ww2 and maintaining a less oppressive state than the USA.

>>17737427
Even if he manages to predict some things correctly, you cannot attribute this to his economic theory if his economic theory is wrong. I can't remember who wrote it, but there was an article in which they did a Marxist class analysis but changed the definitions of the classes from economic to state/non-state and came to the conclusion that the theory becomes correct in that state. The theory needs to be correct or the predictions can only be correct by coincidence.

>>17737548
CRAWLING IN MY SKIN

>>17737554
>Marx gets criticized
>”you just don’t understand!!11”

typical bourgeois response

>>17737599
>law doesn't require a state

>>17737588
I meant axiomatically unfalsifiable, like the axiom of action, not just some shit you can't prove or disprove. My bad.

>>17733310
Post this over on pol, easiest people to trigger

The entire world is heading towards world war, towards catastrophe. Capitalism will fail. A system has to replace it, under capitalism there is no true democracy, its those with wealth that dictate how life functions for the rest. Under periods of revolution, the workers will take power, they will decide what justice is.

>>17737599
>law does not require any central authority like a state

Lmao. So who enforces property rights in the absence of a state and monopoly on violence?

Reminder that marx never actually explains HOW capitalism causes crises and just claims that the capitalist system is prone to them because of muh contradictions

Austrians on the other hand actually explain in detail how recessions are caused by government intervention and central banking causing unsustainable malinvestments that need to be cleared.
Austrian theory has been proven correct and has actual predictive validity.

>tfw commies were right about everything all along
>capitalism is a kike trick
>basing your economy on 0s and 1s is destined to collapse
>only a handful of rich elites, jews, whites, blacks, browns, yellows of all colors and ethnics, will survive and continue their genes
>everyone else is fucked

commies, youre in the wrong town. just stop already, this is /biz/ not fucking /socialismgeneral/

>>17737644
Stalin halted the progress of a feudal state that was about to industrialize and continue to slow its progress for 100 years.

Can you show me a single example of a communist nation in the world that is currently or has ever been more economically advanced than capitalists. You can't.

Again, look at Japan as a model nation because they are.

>>17737718
turns out justice involves giving a tiny minority of the most predatory “workers” all the resources and power, for the common good

>>17737748
How exactly are systemic contradictions not a valid explanations for systemic crisis?

>>17733310
Fuck off. Get out from here, fucking sectants.
Go, spread your religious bullshit somewhere else.

>>17737518
Everyone shills its politics sorry your guys got your echo chamber burst

>>17737763
China in ten years. Maybe 5 now.
>Japan
Lol

>>17737718
Its either nuclear Armageddon or socialist revolution. There is no in between.

>>17737748
No he does. Its due to a declining rate of profit cause the exploitation of worker used to create profit ultimately hits a limit. Like what we are seeing now with the worlds working class under mountains of debt, working several jobs to survive often with no healthcare. As profit rate declines, the capitlaist has to cut production, cut jobs, cause recession, and ultimately lead a drive to war, which is btw what is happening right now with the capitalist powers around the world arming for a world war.

>>17737800
>echo chamber
No, that's where you come from. Your organized spam is annoying though. You really should do the world a favor and kill yourself, subhuman commie.

>>17737840
>Its either nuclear Armageddon or socialist revolution. There is no in between.

Yes there is. You can have both.

>>17737655
>reply is an incoherent string of buzzwords with no overall logic
Nah, you're an idiot.

>>17737427
isn't the entire point of communism to give people more freedom and creativity in their lives. The increase of value from production isn't going to change that. More people will have more free time to do other shit like post youtube videos and more people will have more free time to do shit like watch youtube videos.

All you have to do is create value in some way to society to make money in capitalism. You could shit in the street and live off that if 10 people were willing to give you 20 bucks every time you did it.

You're economic theory relies on sci fi technologies that do not exist. its not practical in the least. You can go ahead and say that communism is going to happen when everything is fully automated but until its fully automated theres no reason to bitch about capitalism or try to destroy it as you all do.

If communism is inevitable why are you here? If the doomsday is going to happen there's no need to shoot up a school.

>>17737840
>>17737870
the free market produced nukes and nukes are preventing world war from happening in the first place

checkmate, communists

>>17737693
exactly, this is what morons like you don't understand

>>17735161
>>17735722
This is stupid, the market cycles don't have anything to do with capitalism and a lot to do with how people are slow to adapt to new circumstances. They will happen under any system.

>>17737754
Wow you really seem like a genuine person and not a shill.

>>17737935
dang, marxists really are only capable of sniveling when their precious worldview gets SLAMMED

>>17737839
>China
LMAO

why don't you stop lying to yourself? Too much of an ego to admit you're wrong?

>>17737693
>The imperative theory of law, which has a long history in legal philosophy, defines "law" as a command backed by a threat. This tradition builds upon the fact that many laws impose obligations and attach sanctions to their violation. Similarly, the paradigm for centralized lawmaking is a decree, in which government officials formulate the state's goal, embody the goal in a rule, and force people to conform to it. Information and motivation move along a one-way street from the top to the bottom.
>Rather than proceeding from top to bottom, lawmaking can proceed from bottom to top. Decentralized lawmaking has several forms. To illustrate, one form induces people to create a market by assigning property rights, such as the tradable emissions rights created by recent amendments to the Clean Air Act. The subject of this Article is another form of decentralized lawmaking: enacting custom. To illustrate, courts may determine fault and liability for accidents by applying the norms of the community in which the accident occurred. When courts apply community standards, they find law, rather than make it.

>>17737968
>He thinks nukes will prevent a war
Anon, I...

>>17737968
That's why you need a socialist vanguard to first strike in order to bring about the collapse of the capitalist system. Nuclear war is a necessity.

>gubment intervention BAD
do people still believe this even though history has proven this wrong multiple times? that no intervention leads to far worse consequences?

>>17733310
How much Bidesk does Beardesk hold?

>>17737209
See the issues with capitalism are irrelevant since you don't offer any solutions. All I can do is use my vast wealth to bribe the local police to send you to jail on bogus charges before you murder my family.

>>17737840
Rate of profit is based on the LTV, which is wrong. Exchange value divided by true labor value doesn't explain shit if there is no true labor value. Come up with a new theory.

>>17737693
>Many scholars have detected a movement in modern history from decentralized to centralized law. John Salmond concluded that customary law is important in the early stages of legal development, but gradually cedes its place to statutes when "the state has grown to its full strength". In a recent article, Ott and Schafer point out that modern German law has moved away from customary law and toward statutes. Many intellectuals believe that centralized law is inevitable, just as they once believed that socialism was inevitable.
>In fact, centralized law, like socialism, is not even plausible for a technologically advanced society. The forces that reversed the trend toward socialism and destroyed central planning are also undermining legal centrism. An advanced economy involves the production of too many commodities for anyone to manage or regulate. As the economy develops, the information and incentive constraints tighten upon public policy. These facts suggest that efficiency requires decentralization to become more important, not less, as economies become more complex. Specifically, efficiency
requires that as economies develop, the enforcement of custom in business communities becomes more important relative to the regulation of business.

>>17734974
AI generated image, so nothing

>>17737786
Because it doesn't explain anything. It's like saying ducks exist so that's why hair grows. Just because labor and capital are at odds doesn't explain why markets go up and down.
Do you people honestly think printing money and pumping it into the stock market which creates unsustainable investments has absolutely no effect on recessions at all?
Are you just stupid or what?

>>17738035
How am I wrong?
Take your time.

>>17737840
look, all you socialists, realise one thing. there is either money or cock sucking. choose one. either you use money as a proxy for TIME and WORK or you dont and you bow down to your master who threatens you with primal violence.
I prefer to decide myself how I spend the fruits of my labour instead of getting goods from the factory as fucking payment. get it through your thick skulls. read about why we have money in the first place. its older than any scheme you can come up with. you can even teach monkeys to use money which have more business sense than you faggots.
>https://www.zmescience.com/research/how-scientists-tught-monkeys-the-concept-of-money-not-long-after-the-first-prostitute-monkey-appeared/

>>17738035
>why don't you stop lying to yourself? Too much of an ego to admit you're wrong?

>>17738082
LTV is right>>17736156

>>17738044
there’s not going to be a WORLD war you goofball
>>17738046
elite genetically modified catgirls would be perfect for this

>>17738082
Based
Can you elaborate on this?

>>17737982
>market cycles don't have anything to do with capitalism
Except the fact that they are endemic to capitalism.
>They will happen under any system.
Sovok was almost immune to them. Only global market fluctuations that affected us were the long term changes in commodity price, like when US tried to flood the world in oil in 1980s.

>>17738022
>the Austrian paradigm is freud-tier fairy dust that has bastardized critique and slowed progressivism to a crawl. It’s pop-philosophy that has dragged on way too long and exists in le marketplace of ideas only due to the violence of its autistic supporters despite their disingenuous claims to the contrary
Literally makes as much sense with it changed to attack you

>>17738082
You can't have value without labor. Just think about it for a second. If no labor was required to produce something, it would be free. Even gold, it has extraction costs, there's labor required to find and extract it. There is nothing of value in this world which does not have labor embodied in it.

>>17738049
We had the fucking industrial revolution under a gold standard and it lead to a massive increase in living standards for the working class, all long before government involvement.

>>17738100
The whole point of a revolution is workers (you and me) displacing capitalists as the owning class. They can suck our dicks in gulag.

>>17737846
If I'm the one in a echo chamber, why am I on your board entertaining your idea? Don't see you over at /leftypol/. if you come want just a honest coversation, will let you say and not get as uppity as you are now.

>>17737980
Morons like you are so brainwashed that you actually believe in civility. I take it you've never been in a physical altercation in your life. Probably come from a nice neighborhood. You think people are generally rational.

The law is a piece of paper. People are smart but mobs are stupid. You need a state to keep things rational or the only thing that would stop me from killing you is other angry irrational mobs.

>>17738128
where’s the portrait of Deng Xaoping

>>17737870
Based and dolphinpilled

>>17738049
>do people actually believe this
I love it when people say lines like this. It shows how much of a bigot they are.

>>17738152
nigger I’m not an Austrian either, you’re both fucking retarded

>>17738168
Marxists believe that the capitalist revolution was an immensely progressive event, however things decay and rot, feudalism had to be overthrown to increase society's productive forces. Capitalism needs to be overthrown to make sure production is rationally planned, the coronavirus is demonstrating exactly how capitalism despite having the resrouces, production, technique, is simply unable to rationally organize its resources to tackle a disease which is relatively weak in the fact of our technology.

>NOOOOOOOOOOOOO A RECESSION CAPITALISM HAS FAILED THIS HAS LITERALLY NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE
stay poor retards

>>17738088
>customs
If you have learned anything from cultural marxism in the last decade its that cutoms don't mean shit and neither does community. In fact the term community is racist in its implication.

>>17738168
>We had the fucking industrial revolution under a gold standard and it lead to a massive increase in living standards for the working class, all long before government involvement.

Wrong. Living conditions during the industrial revolution were horrible, even worse than those under subsistence agriculture in some cases. What actually improved living conditions are the social democratic reforms enacted by capitalist governments under threat of socialist take-over. See: Bismarcks's social and healthcare reforms or FDR's New Deal.

>>17738193
But but but how will we function without porky?

>>17738156
There´s still factor of natural scarcity and power relations. If a material suddenly spawned in our pockets and we knew no way how to reproduce that material, the material would still have be traded for a price. Just as if American FED declared that 100g of the material is worth 10 dollar and everyone who deviates from that price will be droned, then the price would be revolving around 1 dollar per gram.

>>17738168
It led to a decrease in living standards, almost resulting in a communist revolution, until the government decided to calm people down with securities and welfare.

>>17738254
Ok, let's change it to Keynsian or some other economic theory. Point is, your "critique" is just a pretentious nonsense, like if I said "Bro, I ain't replying to you through a PC, the PC is replying to you through me".

>>17738254
Racist cope won't save our stonks.

>>17738193
There's no reason to put the capitalist pigs into gulags. They didn't make the system we all live in, even if they've benefited. Just rescind their rights of capital ownership and let them live like everyone else. Revenge benefits no-one.

>>17738325
>1 dollar per gram
*10 cents per gram, rum not good for doing maths.

>>17734536
what is this if not based?

>>17738305
It’s okay, we’d just build a new porky to replace the old one

>>17738207
it has jack shit to do with civility you moron
check your fucking assumptions, I've been saying that civility is complete bullshit for decades, decentralized law has nothing to do with it at all, it's the natural way people come together to preserve any semblance of cooperation while ensuring they don't get fucked in the ass themselves, in other words in their own best interest game-theoretically
you literally just restated the exact sentiment shown to be completely false in the last comment I made
>>Many scholars have detected a movement in modern history from decentralized to centralized law. John Salmond concluded that customary law is important in the early stages of legal development, but gradually cedes its place to statutes when "the state has grown to its full strength". In a recent article, Ott and Schafer point out that modern German law has moved away from customary law and toward statutes. Many intellectuals believe that centralized law is inevitable, just as they once believed that socialism was inevitable.

>>17738295
>I-It's just an another recession
Now realize the fact that we are still fucked since the last one. And another one will come after this. Now what will happen once things are just too fucked? Simple, you won't be able to bail out the banks. After that, it is total collapse: "too big to fail" banks domino collapse leading to a total economic shutdown and societal collapse that can only be prevented on short term by martial law (and even then it would be hard) and in-kind economic planning long term. This either means state capitalism or socialism becomes the norm.

>>17733385
Obvious bait. TRPF.

>>17738325
Thats true and that's also factored into the LTV. Value has a mother, the earth and a father, labor. The scarce resource is worth something because the cost of its extraction, of finding it, is embodied in its labor.

>>17738301
wrong, customs might change drastically, but wherever there are people coexisting in the same area, there will necessarily develop customs, which form the basis of law without any central authority

>>17738402
Oh and also add the ecological collapse on top of that along with escalating global conflicts

>>17738327
>if I don’t like what he says I can just reject it and pretend it’s illogical!!11
based, just like me with Marxism
>>17738346
>saying nigger is racist
gay

>>17738156
>Just think about it for a second.
No u. Have you ever made a single dollar in your life? It has absolutely nothing to do with how much labor you put into it. Me being able to buy bananas from people with lots of bananas and sell them to people with few bananas is not some oppressive conspiracy that you need to overthrow through revolution. You're just shit at life.

>>17737748
He wrote a bunch of books on why crisis happens you dumb motherfucker.

>>17738096
China
>1.2 billion people
>3rd largest economy
>25% poverty rate
>eating dogs
>80% of produce bought from America
>ghost cities
>can't contain a disease
>shit drama shows
>high crime
>pollution
>destroyed culture


Japan
>138 million
>4th largest economy
>clean streets
>low crime
>environmentally friendly
>traditional culture
>great tv shows
>technology expansions

>>17737523
I can't wait for the day where every single thing has a password, and the owner simply is whoever has that password, so this stupid commie argument will go away and never come back.

>>17737748
>what is the business cycle
>what is capitalist consumption and waste

>>17738364
Actually good take tho.

YOU NIGGERS DON'T BELONG IN HERE.
GO BACK TO FUCKING LEFTYPOL FUCKING FAGGOTS.

>>17738128
China should be the worlds largest economy by numbers alone yet they have failed to do so because of communism. They have 3x the population the U.S. does and somehow they manage to not be 3x was wealthy.

>>17738137
There are a multitude of problems with the LTV, but I'll stick to the biggest ones.
The derivation is basically entirely bullshit, which reduces the validity of the theory to equivalent to stuff from Friedman. The derivation goes as follows:
1. commodities (things that satisfy human wants) have use-value (utility) and exchange-value
2. exchange value cannot be based on material properties, as you can trade things with entirely different material properties
3. hence it's not based on use-value
4. so as it's not based on utility, it must be based on something else, and this thing must be labor. No, he doesn't explain why it must be labor as opposed to any other non-material property.
The conclusion here does not follow from the premises. Also, he seems to entirely forget about the fact that you can have non-material uses for commodities, and the definition of commodity doesn't specify that they have to be physical things either, so you could arguably call labor itself a commodity, in which case everything obviously falls apart.
Another problem is the fact that he's looking for socially accepted objective value scales by considering commodities on an individual level. And he makes conclusions about individual commodities based on the trend (he calls it a law but that's obviously bullshit) that he observes.
As a final note, the trend noted by LTV can be perfectly explained by the fact that things that take more labor to produce tend to be scarcer, in which case your regular economic knowledge should suffice to explain why the prices go up.

>>17738373
Yeah and that'd be restoring capitalism so...

>Trump talking
>Dow dropping below 21 500

LMAO

>>17738402
>And another one will come after this
Yes. Who gives a shit lmao? I didn't even bother reading all the teenage doomer masturbation fantasy you posted after

>>17738500
>bussiness cycle
IT WILL NEVER BE UP AGAIN
do you actually believe this?

>>17738511
>GET OUT OF MY SAFE SPACE!!!
No

>stocks go down therefore we must implement a system that does not allow for any form of human autonomy and only seeks the infinite advancement of technical efficiency
no

>>17738511
>waaah waaah
>only I get to decide what political opinions exist on MY board
Go fuck yourself you fucking crybaby, and I've never once been to /leftypol/.

>>17738563
>I didn't bother to read
>But I know what it says
I am waiting for a reply nigger. Prove to me your system can survive repeated economic collapses in the long term

>>17738537
>No, he doesn't explain why it must be labor as opposed to any other non-material property
What other non-material property?

>>17733310
i never doubted you for a moment

>>17738486
Its almost like the US helped Japan alot to grow there economy to rival China and the former USSR regionally. Sorry japan isnt all of capitalism most the world isn't in 1st world conditions. Whats your point?

>>17738607
You're a worthless retard in any case.

>>17738448
I'm kind of curious how chronic chan posters talk to fit in with normoids

>>17738653

>>17738488
Who could forget that notorious commie, Thomas Jefferson.

>>17738583
/biz/strawman # 2030484738384747382947473
>implying thats not live under neoliberalism
Complete kek

>>17733310
Nothing I hate more than commies. Embrace the truth

>>17738607
Its not that you have a different opinion its that you are clearly a newfag and a shill. This is /biz/ not /pol/. A board dedicated to capitalism and getting rich. You're a faggot. Its like going to /a/ to post about how anime sucks and cartoons are superior. Its like going to /jp/ to bitch about how Japan is a horrible racist nation.
Its like being a normalfag with no self awareness leaving platos cave because other people were doing it and you wanted to do it too.

>>17738664
Hot and bold take. Do you need a tissue to dry the tears? Or did you spend your remaining $20 on toilet paper?

>>17735993
If you think the American Government and western banks are as centralized as China you are fucking brain dead

>>17738640
Perhaps the fact that commodities by definition satisfy people's wants? That one might be a big one considering even Marx noticed it. Then all you need is a bunch of trading such that the seller can tell what people on aggregate tend to be willing to part with to take this thing that they comparatively prefer and they can set a standardized price. I'm not sure if this conforms to existing theory, but the point is that you can have non-material properties other than labor. This is pretty trivial.

>>17738685
>chronic chan posters
I'm curious how normalfags manage to feed themselves when they are so retarded and close minded.

>>17733428
/pol/ isnt communist faggot

>>17738718
>completely misses the point
read "the technological society" by ellul, aka the only marxist writer worth reading

>>17738685
I ask them superficial questions about their lives and bring up things they’ve told me before, because committing intellectually is scary

>>17738725
Oldfag on 4chan (since late '06, I believe), newfag on /biz/, that's true. If you think these are normal times, however, and that /biz/ can just keep functioning like usual, then you've got some kind of faulty mutant anatomy going on with your intestine pumping the shit into your brain and your brain out through your ass.

>>17738726
Yes communism and leftism. Truly a hot take on the world. Only every college kid who thinks he's being edgy was ever a communist.

>>17738755
What you just described is use value.

>NOOOOO!! NOT THE HECKIN FREEMARKERINO

>>17738814
I didn't mention it in my first post but Marx only rules out use-value by ruling out material properties, which is another big problem, as you can no doubt tell. Thanks for reminding me.

>>17738813
I'm not an ignorant Americunt, we don't treat political and economical opinions as "edgy" in my country.

>>17738624
The thing is I can't "prove" anything to you because you are a tinfoil hat tier doomer. Every recession you will be prophesying the end of the world, and I'll be buying low because it always goes back up.

>there are american millennials in this thread who believe they know more about communism than my aunt who got shot at by soviet tanks in prague