/biz/ - Business & Finance

bump

Help plz

>>17556895
Germany had 'infinite money' to the point children played with bricks of money because toy blocks were unaffordable and a wheelbarrow full of money was needed to buy bread.

>>17557272
That doesn't answer the question.

>>17556895
Is there infinite food?
Is there infinite energy?
Is there infinite space?

Liberals will defend this

>>17557299
What is that supposed to mean?

I'm more confused now than when I posted this shit.

>>17557296
Yes it does. The more money in circulation the less value it holds against your work and your goods. There could be quadrillions of dollars incirculation but a loaf of bread now costs $1,000,000.

>>17556895
> Everyone can be rich, there is infinite money
wrong

>>17557369
So you are saying that being rich is a detriment to the economy.

>>17557371
That's the answer I keep getting though. No reason to take money from the rich because everyone can just work hard and earn enough to be rich too.
Only way for that to work is if there are infinite resources to share.

Getting an answer to this is like pulling teeth.

>>17557462
Great news OP. You are going to be a multi billionaire soon if the Fed keeps lowering its rates.

>>17557482
THAT DOESN'T ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION.

What are you not getting about this.

DOES HOARDING WEALTH DEVALUE THE SYSTEM OR NOT. AND IF IT DOES WHY WOULD WE ALLOW PEOPLE TO DO THAT?

If there is infinite money wed all be infinetely rich

>>17557509
Printing lots of wealth devalues the dollar. The system cares less for the dollar the more there is.

>>17557533
We should take money away from rich people, is what you are saying?

>>17557554
What money? Jeff Bezos doesnt haveva money bin like Scrooge McDuck, he mostly has Amazon stock thatd decline the moment Smoothbrains like you try take it away.

>>17557554
if money loses its value rich people will invest it so it wont lose value.
Thats the whole point.
But rich people are never going to lose the value on their wealth unless inflation is super high.

I honestly don't understand why this is so difficult? Why can you assholes not just give me a straight answer?

>>17557412
> No reason to take money from the rich because everyone can just work hard and earn enough to be rich too.
> to be RICH
nice strawman man, now who the fuck told you this bullshit? people who are against high taxes would usually tell you to work hard in order to be wealthy, not excessively rich

>>17557594
I understand how value systems work. I am not talking about that.
There are literally hundreds of billions of dollars just sitting in banks in tax havens. Not investments, literal actual dollars.
That was proven with the Panama Papers.
I am asking why we allow that shit to happen if hoarding money causes devaluation.
At that point they are literally stealing wealth.

>>17557596
I am sorry that you are so stupid.

>>17557598
It's not a fucking political stance you arrogant moron. It's a real question.
Stop thinking everyone is out to get you. I don't care what the fucking answer is I JUST WANT A FUCKING ANSWER.

>>17557636
Yes I am stupid. That is the point. That is why I want someone else to explain this shit to me.

>>17557656
> posts illogical, incoherent baits
> it's a real question

>>17557702
SO THEN REPHRASE IT SO IT'S NOT FUCKING 'BAIT' ANYMORE.

Seriously. Tell me the million ways I am wrong. I really want to know what the fucking is going on.

>>17557728
> DOES HOARDING WEALTH DEVALUE THE SYSTEM OR NOT
no it doesn't

>>17557734
That's not an explanation that's a refutation. I get that you disagree, I want to know why.

okay im going to put it this way
>fed prints more money
>richfag invests money and beats inflation
>poorfags wages stay the same but money loses its value
>productivity goes up and wages go down
wagie ragie

>>17557509
Money isn't wealth.

>>17557764
it's your obligation to prove it does, but ok:
rich people hoard money
there's now less money in circulation
poor people's money now have more value

>>17557804
Thank you for being so pedantic. That's really helping.

>>17556895
I think I see a few misconceptions: when we say "printing money", what we mean is borrowing money from the future, and spending it in the present. When people borrow money, they are literally printing themselves money, and this is how 95% of the money comes into existence; the Fed only prints a very small amount, comparatively speaking. Now, money is a measure of value for goods and services, but money must also recursively measure itself, which is expressed as an interest rate, or "the price of money"; for example, if you have a bond that yields 2% nominally, but price inflation is running at 3%, you effectively are getting NEGATIVE 1%, in real terms. Thus, when the Fed does QE and drops interest rates, they are making money less "expensive", which helps the borrower pay off their debts, at the expense of the lender. For about 30 years, rates have been dropping and money has been getting cheaper and cheaper, nobody knows the endgame, but we are almost at the finish line and it should be quite spectacular. I'll link the Ray Dalio vid, he sugarcoats it a lot, personally I think a "beautiful deleveraging" is bullshit, but it's a good overview regardless

https://youtu.be/PHe0bXAIuk0

>>17557848
it's not being pedantic it's fucking basics that even children are aware of

>>17557764
ok here is the short version since i dont think you can comprehend anything more than that

if a rich guy hoards money its does not devalue the dollar because the money was "earned" in some way through someones work but if you start printing money that money was not earned and is not backed up by any work so it devalues the rest of the money that exists

>>17557841
WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN IT'S MY OBLIGATION. I AM NOT MAKING AN ASSERTION I AM ASKING A QUESTION.

Less money in circulation but more money in total. If the way to combat inflation was to just literally remove money then everyone could go in their back yard and burn a few hundred dollars and all of a sudden money would be worth a fuck ton more.

>>17556895
Think of it more as there is finite "value". Lots of the value is in the earth. The value can be extracted through mining, raising humans to do jobs, doing jobs, all taking the value it took to create them and trying to take even more value from the earth. Money is just a representation of that value. We've extracted Y value from the earth and use X dollars to represent it. The value of money is Y/X. If you increase X without increasing Y the value of the money goes down since there is more of it representing the total value Y so it goes down. The important thing is that the money isnt the value, it just represents the value and lets us exchange the value.

>>17557878
if you could get everyone to agree on anything we would not have any issues.
but thats not the case is it.

>>17557878
> REEEEEEE
go back to plebbit or where the fuck did you crawl out from with your retarded caps

> Less money in circulation but more money in total
are you THAT retarded or just baiting? rich people hoarding money in no single way implies there's more money in circulation

> If the way to combat inflation was to just literally remove money then everyone could go in their back yard and burn a few hundred dollars and all of a sudden money would be worth a fuck ton more
yes, it works exactly like this

>>17557943
What you are saying is in literal contradiction with what >>17557853 is saying.

Borrowing from the future with credit is the creation of new money. That means there is more money in circulation. That means every dollar is now worth less.
The more people do this, the less each dollar is worth compounded over time.
The richer a single person is the more money they can borrow from the future the less each dollar is worth.

Please explain to me what the fuck I am not getting.

>>17557878
You don't understand the difference between money and assets. You're either 12 years old, or actually retarded.

>>17558006
Explain the difference then. Because to me an asset is just a way to hold money. That's the point isn't it? It holds your investment and gains interest, hopefully, so you profit from it.

>>17557990
this >>17558006 is going to be the last thing I'd want to tell you. now go get screened for severe brain damage

it is bad but you can literally not do shit against it, that's why no one does anything
it will always be easier to corrupt the new laws gatekeepers then to actually give away all your wealth, so in short: rich people can hide and hoard money because literally every single person becomes a whore if they have power over such a person and will be corrupted rather, the temptation is too strong

>>17558070
“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.” - Albert Einstein

>>17558045
>Because to me an asset is just a way to hold money. That's the point isn't it?


You're a complete retard. Money has no intrinsic value, not even gold or silver actually do. Money is a way to get assets, not the other way around. You wouldn't sell your house in the post-apocalypse for a bunch of useless paper.

>>17558111
anon please watch the video I posted, and study it carefully. Also, nice digits

>>17558133
That literally means nothing to me in this context.
I get that money in itself has no value, but that is not what I am talking about, I am talking about the IDEA of money. The REASON we fucking have money in the first place.
This is just more pedantic bullshit.
If Bill Gates came to your house and said "I want to give you 1 billion dollars" would you turn around and say "Well actually money has no intrinsic value."?
No?
Then just fucking answer the question.

>>17558111
Or maybe the concept is beyond a 6 year old's understanding, and we don't feel like wasting our time. A famous person saying something doesn't make it true.

>>17558182
What exactly is your question? What are you not getting?

>>17556895
no
if there is infinite money, money itself is worthless, and by definition would not be money, so that's not even worth imagining
if there is finite money, hoarding money, also known as saving, causes the money everyone is holding to be worth more, thus increasing everyone's spending power temporarily, which in turn leads to more spending, decreasing everyone's spending power temporarily
this natural cycle between saving and spending happens by itself in a market in equilibrium when there's no central bank backed by violent gangsters calling themselves nation states to control the money supply

>>17558182
There's no helping you. Everytime someone explains it you, you go HURR DURR HURR DURR.

>>17558244
you answer his question he makes up some unrelated mindfuckery and accuses you of ignoring it although the question was about something completely different

>>17556895
I appreciate you are taking the effort to try to understand, but I get the impression you're just too stupid

>>17558244
If there is a finite amount of money in the world and one person puts a large amount of that money into a vault, the total amount of money in circulation decreases which SHOULD increase the value of each dollar.
But the total number of people who need access to that money stays the same.
To 'fix' this issue, more money is created or printed. When that happens that devalues the money.
Each dollar is worth less. It has less buying power.
The more people who hoard money the more money has to be printed or created, the less valuable that money becomes.
So the purchasing power of those dollars decreases.
Why would we allow this to happen? What is the benefit to this?

>>17558379
>Why would we allow this to happen? What is the benefit to this?


The game isn't designed for (You) to win it

>>17558379
FUCKING STFU AND WATCH THIS VIDEO HOLY SHIT
https://youtu.be/PHe0bXAIuk0
https://youtu.be/PHe0bXAIuk0
https://youtu.be/PHe0bXAIuk0

>>17558409
That's ptihy and all but it really isn't helpful.

> the more cheese there is, the more holes there is
> more cheese = less cheese
> why is it allowed???

>>17557943

You do know that entire countries actually burned money to reduce inflation right?

Probably not because you are a retard

>>17556895
It's a sin to covet other people's wealth. You do know that, right, anon?

>>17557389
No he's saying you're braindead, a kike, or both.

>>17558379
Wew. I had a full paragraph? Of a redpill, that I almost dropped on your ass. I can see now you wouldn't be able to swallow that. Easy as fuck answer inflation. Read about it. Simple shitcoins do this such as xrp, xtz, and the king of all, tether. all as "designed"

>>17558463
I don't want other peoples wealth. They can keep it. I don't give a fuck how many rich people there are.
That is not the point of this thread.

>>17558451
you sure you wanted to answer me and not OP? or your point is that burning didn't work?

>>17556895
printing infinite resources on this gay planet wen?

>>17558499
The point of this thread is "Help me justify the looting of 'hoarded' wealth. After all, 'hoarded' wealth is a detriment to the economy, isn't it?"

You are coveting that wealth for yourself. Thou shalt not covet.

>>17558566
I DON'T WANT TO TAKE THEIR MONEY. WHAT PART OF THIS IS DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND.
I WANT TO KNOW WHY, IF IT IS A DETRIMENT, THAT WE WOULD ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.
THAT IS NOT THE SAME.

>>17558379
First of all the money hardly ever just sits there. The money either goes in a bank which lends it or in assets (houses/land/stocks etc) which are bought and sold all the time producing transactions and economic activity. Now, money is printed which makes it less valuable but at the same time goods, services and population are constantly growing so there's more stuff to buy which evens it out. Governments and central banks try to print enough money to hit just the right balance between devaluing money and therefore making it unprofitable to just hoard it but not enough that it spirals into hyperinflation which leads to money not having any worth

>>17556895
There is infinite money but no one will necessarily accept 99.9% of it. Try to make some. Good money gets hoarded of course.

>>17557369
>The more money in circulation the less value it holds against your work and your goods
Just because there's more money doesn't mean there's more demand for anything in particular. How the quantity effects exchange rates of things has to do with how things really translate into demand.

>>17557299
No because those are real physical entities. Money is just IOU's, there's no physical limit to how much debt can exist. Everything could be worthless or infinitely expensive.

>>17557853
It's literally impossible to borrow anything from the future. You fell for figurative language lol

>>17558463
Gluttony is a sin but it ain't stopping me from chowing down anytime soon

>>17558610
Panama Papers prove there is at least 600 billion dollars sitting around not doing anything.

>>17558633
>Panama Papers prove there is at least 600 billion dollars sitting around not doing anything.


600 billion dollars is literally nothing. The majority of our money is virtual

Ah yes, I remember that time when Japan printed lots of money, while at the same time, that money started to increase in value.

Even if this defies all logic and reason, it happened after QE. This is just another example. Welcome to deflation.

>>17558633
That's from individuals from all over the world and its not as much as you think.

>>17558669
It's not literally nothing. It is literally 600 billion dollars.

>>17558633
How fucking old are you? Are you a nigger/pajeet? WATCH THE VIDEO YOU RETARDED FUCK, STOP SHITTING UP MY /BIZ/

https://youtu.be/PHe0bXAIuk0

>>17558710
>It's not literally nothing. It is literally 600 billion dollars.

"MINE, MINE, I DESERVE IT MORE THAN YOU, IT'S MINE!"
-You

>>17558688
interesting, any other examples and/or anything to read about this?

>>17558712
haven't you yet understood he's either hopelessly retarded or (more likely) a troll

>>17558740
I DON'T WANT THE FUCKING MONEY.
Holy shit. All of you fuckers are paranoid assholes. Not everyone who asks questions about the system wants to steal your shit.

>>17558712
I AM LITERALLY WATCHING IT RIGHT NOW. IT'S FUCKING 30 MINUTES LONG. IT HASN'T EVEN BEEN 30 MINUTES YET. STOP SUCKING YOUR OWN DICK OVER THE FUCKING VIDEO.

>>17558617
>It's literally impossible to borrow anything from the future
>have income
>borrow money
>spend borrowed money
>pay it back later from future income
nigger what

>>17558819
I LITERALLY JUST WATCHED IT AGAIN WHILE YOU WERE BUSY SHITPOSTING AND RUNNING YOUR MOUTH ABOUT THINGS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND

>>17558898
Yeah, we have already established that I am stupid, yet you're surprised that it takes me longer to understand the video and that I have to repeat some parts.
I might be an idiot but you're a fucking moron.

>>17558796
>the system

Commie.

>>17559038
the current system in the US and most "civilized" nations is literally communism, so how about fuck no

>>17558829
1. You're borrowing someone elses income from today.
2. You're spending currently existing income.
3. There's no way of knowing what your future income will be since you don't know the future. You're estimating based off (potently very wrong) information from today and it may be way off.

Noting really from the future there.

>>17558775

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_asset_price_bubble

>>17559103
He wants a worse degree of communism. We're on Stalinism, he wants Trotsky.

>>17559180
thank you
so basically this is unsuccessful QE done in deflationary spiral

Fed policy on expecting 2% growth year-to-year is highly dependent on immigration. No immigration means no growth. No amount of money printing can fight the deflationary effects of population decline. Boomers are finding out that their millennial kids are having furbabies, or they're becoming gay in ever increasing numbers.

The whole plan from the 1960s involved borrowing from US immigrants and millenials in the early 2000s, while having them foot the bill. I would say this is definitely based and redpilled of them, and the boomers are going to win as they die off from the virus. They'll be laughing at us from the grave. As they sell off their appreciated homes and assets to Chinese buyers, they'll go and retire to parts of the US that have no jobs and no land value.

>>17559180
>>17559414
but to be precise, you stated that
> at the same time, that money started to increase in value
whis is wrong, because the money was increasing in value before they started to print more and just continued to do so

so there's nothing unusual or against the economic laws in this case, it's just that the QE was unsuccessful. or did I miss something?

>>17559202
lmao, that's hilarious
it's funny cause it's true

>>17559491
So whenever there are stock selloffs, you are buying the currency that that stock is traded with. As the demand for USD increases, the USD appreciates faster than equities. In fact, the USD could appreciate faster than Gold [Gold declines to the US dollar].

The expectation is whenever there is QE, stock values increase. When there is QE/interest rate drops, and there are stock selloffs at the same time, that's when things turn could turn south. But it's great for anyone holding cash in the short term.

Cash never does well, except when you enter a recession of this type. This is Warren Buffets strategy as he basically sells cash-secured put options, while having lots of cash to take risks with. I am not advising anyone here to write options, this is really a game for the wealthy as options are 100x leveraged.

He sells insurance during market rallies, and makes insurance more expensive during recessions. This is why he owns Geico. But with Geico, he sells put options to the unwashed consumer driving their lemons around.

>>17559764
> When there is QE/interest rate drops, and there are stock selloffs at the same time, that's when things turn could turn south
what do you mean by "thing could turn south"? the QE/interest rate drops not reaching it's goals because the deflation trend is stronger?

>>17559931
>The QE/interest rate drops not reaching it's goals because the deflation trend is stronger?

Exactly.

Ultimately it is a game of confidence, and a high stakes game. If everyone pretends everything is okay, stocks won't drop. The media heavily manipulates this, and at the end of the day, that's where they make their money.

This is also why Bloomberg/Reuters has a news subscription service, where they charge traders money to get the news before everyone else does. Since trades are executed milliseconds after the news is read (probably by some NLP algorithm), everything is literally priced in in the short term. This however, is not the case for the long term, as even computers have trouble predicting long into the future. This also explains why we can't predict the weather past 1 week, and this is where humans can do a better job.

It's just a matter of seeing if the writing is on the wall, and knowing when to enter and when to exit a position. This is much harder in less liquid markets such as real-estate.

I still bet that this recession is going to be a slow and painful one, rather than the crash we saw in 2008.

>>17560216
> I still bet that this recession is going to be a slow and painful one, rather than the crash we saw in 2008.
I agree with this because the coronavirus will spread gradually (and so will the measures taken which will result in bad economical climate). In 2008 we had rather a "last drop" situation because of accumulating too much risk.

>>17560408
Agreed. 2008 was the turning point. I think Ray Dalio is right, we're in the first cycle of the deleveraging phase here in the US. The debt loads are a lot less than they were in 2008, but they're still there.

I think the contagion here is the panic caused by the virus. The Chinese stock market is fragile, and the US still heavily dependent on Chinese imports. You can argue as to whether the tariffs were beneficial or not here. From an economic perspective, tariffs devalue the Dollar to the Yuan, making Chinese goods more expensive so it has inflationary effects to fight deflation. Trump wants to fight deflation in his own way but where this really breaks is when we lose confidence in the US market. The longer the economic expansion, the more investors get worried. I started to worry around 2017, but I held on until 2019 when I slowly exited when there was low volatility.

I did buy some crabbing cheapies but I expect I'll do poorly in the next month.

>>17556895
what if socialism

Tariffs, QE and dropping interest rates indicates that both the government and the Fed are fighting deflation.

>>17556895
>If there is finite money then hoarding money forces the printing of more money which devalues it.
Which is why small amounts of inflation is a good thing, it encourages the money supply to keep moving

Sadly it seems like internet propaganda has helped delude the average retail investor thinking that there's always inflation, all the time, and that deflation can never happen.

You're all being lied to. Populations are peaking, people aren't having kids. How do you expect inflation in this climate? The Fed can't print itself out of deflation. Japan did this and they've been failing for 30 years.

Inflation is possible in a 3rd world shithole, but it's unlikely in the first world unless the Government defaults. So maybe if Japan defaults, there is a risk, but the US won't be first in such a situation. Interest rates spike when there is news of the remote possibility of a bond defaults. That's when your dollars turn into toilet paper.

>>17561020
>You're all being lied to. Populations are peaking, people aren't having kids. How do you expect inflation in this climate? The Fed can't print itself out of deflation. Japan did this and they've been failing for 30 years.
are you implying that there's a systemic failure (as opposed to a temporary crisis like in 20th century and 2000s) ahead of us?

This is some Elon Musk tier intelligence trolling us for a laugh. Threads like this are rare, but a joy to behold.

>>17556895
>Rich people hoarding money doesn't hurt poor people. They can earn more money.
My Son, rich people don't hoard money, rich people hoard assets, anything you can look at and touch, also they own stakes in companies.
Once money inflates, asset prices inflate too, so they always keep being rich.
Printing money to makes poor become rich will never work, poor guys with inflated money will never be able to hoard enough to reach adjusted to inflation asset prices.

>>17561177
yes probably, the amount of logical fallacies in his posts is spectacular

>>17556895
The money the rich people accumulate isnt in circulation for people to buy stuff.
If you simply print infinite money and give everyone free money, then money is worthless, it holds no value, nobody would want it since, you know theres infinite of it.
Why would the Baker sell you bread for money when he already has all the money he wants? He would only sell you his bread for something he needs.

>>17556895
No. Rich people don't hoard money, they buy assets

>>17556895
if gold grew from trees it would cost about as much as apples
thats the easiest way of explaining i can think off

>>17561098
Judging from this which just got posted an hour ago.

See where rates are going over the past few days.
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/interest-rates/Pages/TextView.aspx?data=yield

Here is a 10-year view.
https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/bond/tmubmusd01m?countrycode=bx

Bonds are not supposed to be as volatile as they are now. At least in 2008 you can get some yield from the 10-year bond, but it looks as if the entire curve is being pushed down in this situation. This might turn into a case where congress may need to legislate having negative interest rates here in the US, to give some more room.

Think about it from this perspective. Once unemployment reaches an all time low, it cannot go any lower. You can add more people to increase unemployment, but if unemployment drops faster than immigration, that has a deflationary effect.

High unemployment means "room for growth".

>>17556895
PRINTING MORE MONEY DOESN'T GIVE YOU MORE MONEY, IT JUST MAKES MONEY HAVE LESS BUYING POWER

>>17561662
> This might turn into a case where congress may need to legislate having negative interest rates here in the US, to give some more room.
it's already implemented in some European countries, what are your thoughts on this?

> but if unemployment drops faster than immigration, that has a deflationary effect.
how exactly?

Money is an abstraction of wealth. It is a way to see who has alot and who has little. It's impossible for everyone to be rich, or even wealthy. The basic level of survival will always be relative poverty

>>17559897
Top kek. This is based as fuck.

>>17556895
The world is a pie
Everybody gets a slice
Money is one of the ways we try and translate that "slice" into a number
It's generally pretty bad at doing so, for reasons you seem to grasp.

>>17556895
Inflationary jewbux are imaginary, only a way for the central banks to steal the wealth of every nation. Real wealth comes in precious metals, bullets, and manufacturing power; all of which the boomers sold to the jews in exchange for their lives being comfortable until they died.

can't believe that this baitthread is still live

>>17563587
Honestly, neither can I.

>>17558566
Only poor people getting money is a detriment.
Banks will literally take money from your bank account if they need it in a "crisis"

>>17560777
fucking checked

>>17556895
All other things being equal, printing money (or, more precisely, increasing the money supply) devalues money.
But all other things are not equal. Increasing productivity (especially automation) has a very strong deflationary effect. The money supply has to be increased in order to prevent that from resulting in mass unemployment.

Hoarding money is a form of deleveraging, which is technically a decrease in the money supply. Printing more money to counteract that does not, at the time, devalue it, but it reduces the amount of money that will subsequently have to be printed.

>>17557728
Kys commie