/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>16799119
this is what a bubble looks like

you remember it for crypto in 2017
you should remember it when crypto hits 50k again

>>16799127
cryptos never hit 50k lol

>>16799119
VIIIX and chill

This kike still talking?

The 401k scam is the ultimate trap. Take your match if it's offered, but fuck anything beyond that.

Funny how the stock market isn't any better than it was under Obama, but Trump fags cling on to it because its the only good thing going for Trump. The average S&P500 gain was actually higher under obama's 8 years than Trump so far. Yeah, last year was 30% up, but it was after a 30% crash. Assuming you invested into mutual or index fund, no way in hell your 401k is 50% up since trump was elected.

I remember the crash last year, stocks "didn't matter" then. But now when they happen to be high they're all that matters. And when the crash they won't matter anymore.

>>16800062
Yeah youre a fucking moron.
obama pumped stock market at the bottom of recession by bailing out banks and stimulus programs.
Trump actually gave organic growth to stock market after the 8 year pump through corporate tax cuts

>>16799973
buy our stock goy, we will double the amount of stock we buy on your behalf so the board can sell at that higher price we prop up with company funds + your paycheck, make sure to hold until you retire pls

>>16800081
>organic growth by pumping more money into the market
keep that tds lad

>>16800081
>Organic Growth

>>16800081
>organic growth

wew lad

>>16800115
>>16800106
>>16800102
Yes the tax cuts saved business across the board retard doomers. The market fundamentals were in dire state before 2016

>>16800144
And how did the market fundamentals improve since then? Did earnings grow as much as stock valuation did?

>>16800081
>organic growth
>currently pumping hundreds of billions of dollars like its nothing

Heh.

I bought SAFEX instead Andi will ride it to zero

>>16800102
does TDS just mean having any opinion of Trump at this point, I've seen it used for both pro- and anti- sentiment, how does that work

>>16800168
Yes, obviously
https://www.macrotrends.net/1324/s-p-500-earnings-history

Not to mention how credit quality improved which is more important

>>16800211
You don't know what EPS means, right? Look at how EPS skyrockets whenever the S&P500 reaches a top before a recession

>>16800144

The markets were at ATH in 2016, just like they are now. The economy however, if anything is weaker. GDP growth is now lower than inflation, we are technically in a recession. The only thing propping up the stock market rally is the fed. Stocks crashed 30% when the fed even hinted at slowing down, only the fed gave in and reversed course did stocks rise again. The tax cut did jack shit but print money and redistribute wealth to mostly billionaires.

>>16800081
hahaha yah m8 taxes for the rich! based Paul Ryan tax plan. then trump said he would never do it again. fucking drumpf Zionist cock is sucker

>>16799119
I do both boi

>>16800062
You're a fucking idiot.

(3274-2085)/2085=.57

How are you so dumb?

>>16799119
literally pointless, I am not gonna buy when its all time high, and I am already long holding some shitty stock that has crashed and probably wont recover

>>16800238
Jesus Christ when did reddit take over biz?

>>16800237
Uhhh pretty sure I do. And you asked if earnings improved moron.

>>16800238
Companies were able to pay off debt + raise wages while increasing buybacks thanks to the cuts. The market still hit multiple highs while under QT as well, the final rate rise caused a 19% drop so youre also wrong about the 30%
>GDP
Yep, you have no idea what youre talking about

>>16800274

Are you cherry picking the dip in oct, 2016, 3 months before Trump was even president. S&P500 was at about 2300 when he actually took the office, and it was another year before the tax cut.

>>16800062
>Trump fags
YOU MUST GO BACK TO HELL KIKE

>>16800102
>>16800106
>>16800115
Look at JIDF seething on /biz/ right now. Their plan was to start WW3 with Iran, and crash the market for the next election (all while they would be loaded up on puts). GAS THE KIKES

>>16800295

So when GDP is weak, it doesn't matter?

The government print a trillion dollars, no shit "wages rise" and stocks went up.

The thing is, it didn't go up any higher on average than it did under obama when deficits were lower, its just much more volatile now. I guess that's great if your a stock trader. Not so great if you work for a living and your quality of life is lower despite some numbers going up.

Its like universal basic income, except instead of printing money and doling it out equality you just give it to global corporations and billionaires. Stocks go up in the short term, so it must be a good idea.

>>16800284
should fuck off back to lebbit cause everyone that was actually watching even trump himself said he would never pass a fucking tax bill like that again because of fucking Paul Ryan
kill yourself kike

>>16800432
trump is a fucking kike cock sucker you stupid bitch fuck

>>16800094
>>16799973
this is why you're poor

>>16800520

Nooo you're wrong everything is a scam except my meme money which will make me rich any day now (insert big number) EOY th-this time

>>16800520

Yep just keeping socking it away in that 401k just like 80% of the rest of Americans. Of course it will go up 12% a year after inflation and 80% of everyone will be retired millionaires in 10 years. What could go wrong?

>>16799119
>You HAVE put money into saving for retirement instead of wasting it on your magic internet coins right???
Neither

>>16800418
Markets are predictive (imagine not knowing that), they knew Trump would be good for the economy so the minute he won the market started to moon. This shit isn't rocket science.

>>16800561

>80% of Americans
>Putting money in their 401K
>And actually keeping it there

Have you never met an American before? Normies spend money as fast or faster than they earn it. If they even put money in their 401K they will pull it all out to buy a bigger house.

>>16800062

Actually the stock market is up 50% since trump was elected. Do your research before posting dummy.

>>16800561
Most people don't own shit for stocks though.
54% of people don't own any, many more own basically none.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/211052/stock-ownership-down-among-older-higher-income.aspx

>>16800561
Do you even realize that you can't withdraw from a 401k until age 59.5?
(well you can but there's tax and penalties).
Unless you're in your mid 40s and up there's no reason not be 100% stocks in your 401k. If you were 30 years old when 2008 happened, you've got it all back by now and much much more.
As you get closer to retirement age, you move from stocks to bonds for safety.
Or just buy some shit coin for a tenth of cent and hope it triples some day while you read The Economic Collapse Blog.

>>16800599
The sentiment was actually bearish for the economy just after Trump won.

>>16800661
Ya, by the operation mockingbird repeaters that you're obviously too stupid to discern from actual normal humans. The reality, that is, the people who actually put their money where their mouth is, were bullish from the moment Trump won. The market was going down going into election night because Clinton was predicted to win, and as soon as Trump won it's been up-up-up.

>>16800599

Ah yes, Everyone knew in october, 2016 that Trump would win and had already bought stocks in anticipation of tax cuts and fed interest rate cuts years later.

>>16800615

S&P 500 was around 2300 when Trump took office. If can cherry pick dips from when Obama was president its still about a 40-50% gain in the US large caps. Most people are not invested 100% in large cap growth stocks, who would be up 50%? Barely anyone. If you take the S&P500 at its ATH today, and what it was when Trump took office, you have a 46% gain, or about 13-14% yearly which is pretty much equivalent to Obama's 8 year average.

>>16800659

Exactly, its mathematically impossible for it to not go up right?

>>16800659
>As you get closer to retirement age, you move from stocks to bonds for safety.

I have my doubts about this conventional wisdom. With the medical advancements in the coming years, someone who takes good care of their health can reasonably expect to live to 100, no? In that case, they should stay in stocks because when they retire, they still have another 40 years of life.

>>16800693
What? Are you retarded? The bottom of this chart was right before the election.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/%5EGSPC/chart?p=%5EGSPC#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

>>16800693
It's probably a good thing you don't invest in the stock market. You are way too emotional.
Its nothing to be ashamed of. Not every one has brains and the ability to stick to a long-term investment plan.
Hopefully you will one day earn back the $40 you lost trying to day trade on Robinhood .

>>16800716
Here because you're a bit slow, lemme paint a picture for you.

>>16800697
That's a possibility too.
Some people are recommending 100% or a bond tent where you gradually increase your stock allocation the closer you get to dropping dead.

>>16800693
Ya but Obama was coming out of the worst financial crisis since the depression, he would have seriously had to fuck things up not to get a good return average during his run.

>>16800795
>Stock market up 50% after 8 years of Obongo
>Only up 49% after 3 years of Kerrrplumffftttt
MIGAtards BTFOd again!

>>16800761

He's just butthurt that he panic sold his stock when Trump won.

>>16800761
I guess he was causing all that growth before he got elected too

>>16800716
>>16800761

What is your point? Obama was president until 2017. You are trying to credit Trump for something that happened months before he was even in office? Let alone even made any impact. Do you think obama cause the GFC too? Because "they" knew obama would win?

>>16800741

I'm up 60% this year. I was talking about the average joe who is up 20% YoY thinks hes doing good, but is really getting murdered. 401ks are expensive and the funds available are usually shit and almost never meet the market let alone beat it. If the market was down 30% and you were down 40% you would not think so good of your 401k. But when the market is up 30% people are ok with being up 20%. Even though to get there trillions of dollars had to be printed and doled out to global corporations and billionaires. No, the vast majority of americans are on the losing end of this short term pump.

>>16800795
>coming out of the worst financial crisis since the depression
>would have seriously had to fuck things up not to get a good return

That makes sense.

>>16800821
>401ks are expensive and the funds available are usually shit and almost never meet the market let alone beat it.
You just making up absolute bullshit.
My 401k is mostly an SP500 index fund with an expense ratio of a few basis points.
My non-retirement portfolio is mostly and SP500 index fund with an expense ration of a few basis points.
> No, the vast majority of americans are on the losing end of this short term pump.
10 year bull run where people doubled or tripled their money

>>16800062
Fuck you. Is easier to recover from bottom than to keep pushing from all time highs. Get fucked. Trump is literally carrying the economy while you libcucks bitch. Lowest unemployment. Highest wages. Highest stocks.
Go cry more, bitch.

Pic related. Is you.

>>16799973
If you make 100K and you invest 10% + match you still have 90k. did you really lose anything? you gain a lot

>>16800880
>10 year bull run where people doubled or tripled their money

I'm talked about the last 2 years of desperate pumping of the stock market with a 40%+ corporate tax cut, a one time, multi-trillion dollar repatriation tax holiday, another round of what's essentially QE now with the fed propping up the repo market, all to prop up the stock market until 2020 at what is essentially the same rate seen under Obama except must more volatile.

If you are actually 100% in S&P500, which is essentially US big tech, you are probably going to get rekt before you ever cash out any of your paper profits. If not in a crash but by inflation over the next decade.

>>16800988
where do you invest?

>>16800988
ok I'll sell everything tomorrow then.
Especially since you discovered this new fact that the SP500 doesn't beat inflation.
What internet token should I buy instead?

>>16800284
2017

>>16801048

Think about it. Why should stocks go up anymore than inflation + their dividends? Besides the dividends (profits) paid out, the only other inflow of money is other people buying in.

For the past 10 years people have had nothing else to invest in other than stocks. The amount of people investing into stocks it at a historic all time high. The proportion of their savings people allocate to stocks are at an historic all time high.

Where is the additional buy in coming from? There are not a lot of people who have money but are not in stocks right now. Participation in the stock market is much more likely to decrease.

Especially if inflation picks up and other investments start to compete much better with stocks. Imagine if interest rates when back up to even where they were in the early 2000s. Stocks dropped 30% in 2018 because the fed said they might not lower interest rates. Imagine if they had to raise them hundreds of points. Imagine if they had to raise them past 10%? The stock market would likely crash 80%.

Of course the fed would never let this happen, stocks will go up forever and there will also never be inflation.

Im just depressed because now I finally have money but now the markets at ATHs so buying now is like playing russian roullete

>>16801145
First of all it was only a 20% drop in 2018 and it was because of the trade war with China.
And stocks don't "go up with dividends. If a stock pays out a $1 dollar dividend, the value of the stock decrease by one dollar the next day. So its a net gain of zero.
So if you can even get the verifiable facts correct, why should I listen to your specalation and predictions?
What do you put your money into, if i may inquire?

>>16801244

What I'm saying the stock market is a big ponzi scheme. The only reason its historically gone up because a higher proportion of the population now invests a higher proportion of their savings into stocks. Even a couple decades ago most people didn't invest invest in stocks or wanted to take much risk doing it. Because you could get a CD or bonds with decent return. Why would you expect stocks to continue to go up faster then their intrinsic value even though participate in the market is peaking?

>>16801339
Because interest rates are shit and theres nothing else to invest in. Why wouldnt people need to always oncest? And real estate is overpriced compared to wages so that would pop before stocks

>>16801449
>oncest
Invest*

>>16801339
so equities have value based on demand. Just like gold, bitcoin and pussy.
>but muh corporate earnings

>>16801449

Exactly, interest rates either have to go up eventually, or inflation will occur, 4/5 of everyone can't be a retired millionaire at once. You are delusional if you think throwing half your paycheck into into the same ponzi scheme for decades that everyone else is already bought into is going to make everyone a retired millionaire in the end.

Monetary policies have impacts lasting for decades, people will be feeling the pain from the irresponsible decisions made today 10 years down the line when the house of cards collapses. But it will surely be enough of a short term pump to make good 2020 reelection ad, which I guess is all anyone running the government cares about.

>>16801507

And what happens when market participation drops, and competition from other investments go back up?

>>16799119
I have 72k put away, but employer is a shit negotiator with Fidelity. Only returned 12% last year. The lion's share is in Empower from my last job, they did much better.

>>16800561
>Yep just keeping socking it away in that 401k just like 80% of the rest of Americans.


Not even 50% of Americans have a 401k

I max out my company's match (10%) and put the rest on a Roth IRA on my own. I mostly invest in Apple (AAPL) and Alphabet (GOOG) so it's been a great year.

>>16801519
You really come up wuth every excuse you can imagine to cope with missing out on the stock market for the last 10 years.
Yes there's risk. It may go down. No shit.
Its good thing you dont own stocks because you're way to emotional to develop an investment plan based on your own risk tolerance and stick with it long-term.
Stick with waging until the day you die because you just dont have what it takes to build wealth over the course of several decades and the ups and downs that go with it.

>>16799119
There are people with 100%+ YTD returns posting on /smg/ at any given time. What are your YTD returns you cryptofags?

>>16801666
500%
I bought $20 worth of Dildonitron at a tenth of a penny each.
Enjoy holding your boomer bags for the next 50 years after the crash.

>>16801608

I made a ton on stocks in the last 10 years. My point if you think stocks are going to keep performing long term, you are retarded. There has been exactly one generation where 100% stocks was a good retirement strategy. You, and 80%+ of the masses (who actually have money) are basing an entire lifetime of "investing" into one asset class and expect that every one of you will be able to cash out at 10x what you put in, despite and increasing share of retirees who will be selling stocks to finance their retirement instead of bonds, or a pension, or social security, despite market participation being as high as it ever can be after increasing over decades, despite interest rates being near zero for a decade and can do nothing but go up. Most of you are just piling it in with complete and open disregard for the tangible value of the asset (index funds). It will be interesting how long the government can keep the charade going.

>>16800944
>it's easier to recover from a depression
The economists of trump general, everyone

>16801694
>Enjoy holding your boomer bags for the next 50 years after the crash.

NOOOOOOO!! YOU CAN'T BE MAKING MONEY HAND OVER FIST IN THE TRADITIONAL MARKETS... NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! OCCUPY WALL STREET. MUH NEW ECONOMY. MUH FUTURE ELITE. NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

>>16801724
I invest in more than one asset class but thanks for rambling on with your wild assumptions anyway.

this shit is going to crash so hard

>>16800062
>NOOOOOO DRUPFT WAS SUPPOSED TO FAIL!!!!

>>16800659
>Do you even realize that you can't withdraw from a 401k until age 59.5?
>(well you can but there's tax and penalties).
False. /biz/, as always, is blind leading the blind...
Look up Substantially Equal Periodic Payment.

THANK YOU PAUL RYAN FOR THAT SICK TAX BILL!

Reminder that all your parents had to do was put $60k in total stock market index in 1990, and you would be a millionaire by now, despite the two recessions.
>>16801145
>Why should stocks go up anymore than inflation + their dividends? Besides the dividends (profits) paid out, the only other inflow of money is other people buying in.
Did you drop out of highschool? It's called reinvesting profits into the company to grow the capital. How do you think companies ever grow bigger? If you really want to make the arguement you're trying to make, you'd bring up the changes in the ratio of NAV to share prices.

>>16801931
wow an obscure loophole for very specific cirumstances. You are so much better than me.

>>16802148
>obscure
Just because you didn't know about it that doesn't make it obscure.
>loophole
Not a loophole. Don't throw around words that don't apply.
>very specific circumstances
Yes, the circumstance of wishing to withdraw your retirement investments early without penalty. Very specific.
>You are so much better than me.
This isn't about you. I don't care about you. Just stop spreading ignorance.

>>16801724
I found the fatal flaw in your thought. You assume that what normal people do effects the stock market at all. Only the top 10 percent of Americans move the stock market and they live on less than 1/2 the interest they make each year. For each one that start to take their RMD another dies and hands it down to his already rich kid to invest. It’s the circle of being rich and white.

>>16799119
Kleros *is* my retirement fund, desu.

>>16799119

my 401k ended up 24% in 2019.

started out at 310k, ended up at 425k

I still won't be voting trump

>>16801244
>If a stock pays a $1 dividend, the value of the stock goes down $1
Ahahahahahahaha why do you even post here?