/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>16584242
>invest capital with a company or.bucket of companies
>OP thinks there is no risk in this so investors are robbing people

>>16584268
I'm facing less risks than the workers. At most I risk losing some bytes in the database of my brokerage firm. The employers are risking their livelihoods and could end up on the street homeless in a downturn. You think the downsides of risk hurt me more than the worker? Think again

>>16584242
The price of an S&P 500 stock is not representative of the productivity of the workers within the companies.

Problem solved

>>16584285
Untrue statement you pulled from your ass

Capitalism is great. Imagine holding HEX for 10 years and actually get rewarded for holding for 10 years on an individual basis. That's fucking great and no other coin has done that. HEX is the best coin ever you stupid wagecucks. Wake up.

>>16584285
Then what's it representative of? Stocks are only intrinsically valuable for dividends, and indirectly valuable for future stock price, which itself is one again only derived from a hope for future dividends. Dividends are from profits, which are the surplus value extracted from the laborers. It's all intended to be related to worker productivity i.e. profitability (in the capitalist definition) in every way even if it's not a perfect estimator

>>16584279
You are also risking your livelihood, you nonce. That you're once removed from the source of the value doesn't mean you don't use that money.

>>16584242
You do do something. You tie up your capital and risk it. The workers use your capital and you must be compensated for it.

>>16584373
Anon I'm risking my wealth, but my wealth is not my livelihood. I can lose all of my excess wealth and still be well off in terms of livelihood because I have other uninvested wealth. The richer you are, the less that the risk of losing wealth affects your livelihood. Bill Gates can lose $50b and his livelihood will not be affected at all. He could lose all but a few hundred million as well and the same would be the case. Thus Bill Gates risks less than the McDonald's wage slave but makes infinitely more wealth as a result

>>16584385
It's just bytes in a computer though, we all know that, this is the Bitcoin sub. After a certain threshold of wealth the wealth you are "risking" is not risked at all since you don't need it

Making wealth from merely having wealth is the goal of bourgeois society and the idea that we can all do it if we want is a fallacy. How can we all leech off the labor of others to avoid labor ourselves? We can't, because labor is necessary. So how are some avoiding labor because of bytes in their bank accounts? It's because of capitalism, because of bourgeois-proletariat class conflict. They leech off of us and provide nothing in return

>>16584365
Capital (machines etc.) Do work and capital owners get their money from the work the capital does.

>>16584389
That’s why retarded Wagies should make as many high risk asymmetrical risks as possible

They should be buying call options with $300 and hope they 5x etc

I’m amazed people can’t reach escape velocity

If a company goes bankrupt the employee loses nothing. They don't contribute any surplus labor or value because they put nothing into the company at all besides a minimum of performance to keep the tard wranglers of their backs. Most wagies are disgustingly overpaid, but they manipulate and take advantage of a system heavily skewed in their favor.

>>16584401
You dont need clothes so you lose nothing by giving them to me. Give me your clothes and stuff. You can survive without.

I think there is no cure for your disease.

>>16584389
Bill Gates is one of the largest singular investors, but even the top ten largest investors are all but invisible to money coming in from worker investments. The idea that only investors invest and only workers work is classist and has been for almost a century.

>>16584413
And nobody is entitled to other peoples money or a job. The universe owes you nothing. Earn your place.

>>16584425
Yup.

>>16584279
I never said your level of risk was higher or lower than anyone else, niggerfaggot. Just that you're risking capital. That risk should carry reward, otherwise why the actual fuck would you risk it?

>>16584242
I don't really see how it would be unethical? That's one of the main purposes of most corporations that go public, to provide for their stockholders.

>>16584334
Braindead
>>16584365
Completely misleading

The price is representative of the value, which is does not solely depend on the productivity of the company. For example BTC does nothing and is not a company, but is valued at thousands of dollars, because of the value of the math involved.

Suck a dick glow trotters

>>16584242
kek
its hilarious that we get some many different replies to such a freaking simple questions, goddamn cucks that have overtaken the board

>>16584268
What does risk matter? Why do we value gambling and greed? The value is produced by work, not risk. Therefore those who do not work do not deserve economic value.

Ewww that greentext is like 15% /biz/ and 85% r*ddit onions shit. Gtfo my board nigger

>>16584818
Adding to my own comment here. The right loves to talk shit about entitlement but those born into or otherwise given wealth for no reason are able to sit on their ass their whole lives in luxury. How is this not the definition of entitlement? Shouldn't traditionalist work ethic be left wing in nature by these standards?

>>16584242
If you post a screencap from this website from about 2012 or sooner, you deserve to be shot.

>>16584832
not at argument faggot

>>16584389
>>16584365
>>16584279
>>16584242
>>16584401

>we all know that, this is the Bitcoin sub

>>16584840
Can you read? That greentext is from 2016, also newfag for whatever that's worth

>>16584242
>Be a corporation
>Need money to do things
>Don't want to take on debt from Jewish bankers
>Decide to take money from investors
>Investors, in return, own shares in the corporation
>Corporation uses that money to do shit that increases profits
>Company is now more valuable
>This implies the shares owned by the investors are also more valuable

>>16584836
I think an argument could be made that it is up to the market to decide when someone is not "being productive", if they manage to hold onto their money despite some henious punishment reigned by god onto them that they are cursed with literally no skills to help them hang onto the wealth then they deserve it anyway.

>>16584847
>>16584840
>>16584832
/pol/ hive is triggared girls great job

>>16584845
Yeah, you know what's not an argument? Writing some cheesy half baked and meme drunk fan fiction about sex with Karl Marx in a communist utopia. Go back you huge faggot

>>16584242
It’s all volentary. So yes its ethical.

>>16584854
Why should we let an abstract concept dictate human matters? Why let ourselves be slaves to profit? Notice how lifeless and meaningless the lives of the hyper rich are. They live their lives in pursuit of status and a nihilistic pursuit of wealth purely for wealth's sake. Notice how all science and art must have market value to be validated in our society. Notice how the people doing those crafts for their own sake are stuck bootlicking for financial support or living in poverty despite providing some of the most important human needs. Notice how those who do reach celebrity status either circlejerk around cults of personality in Academia or making "art" like taping bananas to walls as they lose sight of their true merits. This system is lifeless, everything from school shootings to why our cultures have been destroyed is caused by this endless pursuit of greed. Even the end of the world caused by climate change is easier for us to imagine than the end of capitalism due to how self-deluded we've become.

>>16584856
It's not a /pol/ thing, it's an IQ thing. This reads like every trashy wannabe green text ever made, like if you actually enjoy wasting your time reading and thinking about garbage masturbatory copy pasta tier posts like these you're probably unironically below the mean intelligence

>>16584865
not an argument
>>16584871
please explain how being forced at gunpoint as a child to mine cobalt by hand to build iphones for retarded yuppies is voluntary? The slavery and violence still exists anon, it's just been abstracted and decentralized away so we have a harder time seeing it. Also, landlords are not voluntary, they are literally called lords and rentseek as in fuedalism. Read the Wealth of Nations, even figures like Adam Smith thought rent seeking was wrong. In fact, our whole country was founded to get away from the rent seeking of the crown.

>>16584401

>this is the Bitcoin sub

>>16584887
I didn't read the greentext op posted desu, didn't care too. Only took the information I needed to dunk on the retards spouting one liners. I'm much more interested in the discussion happening here rn. There's no obligation that anyone here read anything. Moreover you being on this site informs me that you've enjoyed and likely still enjoy greentexts even if this particular one didn't tickle you. If you can honestly tell me you haven't laughed at one in the past month then touche.

>>16584911
It's a business and finance sub. The nature of biz and finance are within the realm of possible on topic discussion. For example, in light of the FED bailing out the repo market AGAIN we really should be asking more fundamental questions about what that means. Like, why do multinational corporations essentially have socialism for the rich where they can have a nanny state step in when they fuck up to give them head pats and ice cream while everyone else has weather the paint forced on them?

>>16584884
I don't disagree, but I also think your projecting and not rationalizing. Nobody is a slave to profit, nobody lives their lives in only empty hedonism, nobody is a bootlicker or a sham. All of those things are projections of what you see and the limitations you see placed around you, projections often times crafted by other people very carefully so that you feel there is nothing in your life except that oscillation of conformity. All the market represents is all humans coming together to define value to each other, there should be no limitations. Money itself is meaningless, it is simply a claim on goods and services. The question you really should be asking if you want to solve this problem in my opinion is how can I help people become more content with life, rather then trying to force people into some preconceived notion of wants and needs in a world where even the air you breath slowly withers your body.

>>16584413
>Most wagies are disgustingly overpaid, but they manipulate and take advantage of a system heavily skewed in their favor.


You're an actual jew if you believe this. The reason dividends even exist is because most companies buy labor for less than it's worth.

>>16584926
Touchê. I think "greentext stories" are a relic of an era past, and greentext is merely a tool for formatting now. Not a popular opinion with the resident wizards, but if they want the site to thrive it needs to cut the chaff.

>>16584947
If we're going to start talking about projection the first question I'd like to ask is this, what is your economic class good sir? Nevertheless I'd counter that I have rationalized and read for years, it's impossible for me not to see these exploitative relationships everywhere I look. You will too once the resource wars start and your material reality diminishes before your eyes my friend.

Let me express my experience so you can see where I stand since you've taken such interest. I have gotten good grades my whole life but I am poor due to my birthright. I worked tirelessly for years in community college taking 5 science classes a semester while working full time at the same time during some semesters. I have back issues, gastrointestinal issues and untreated anxiety and depression all because I cannot afford healthcare. During my time in college I've maintained a 3.7gpa and have found no one who gives a shit as much as I do including the professors. Not a single person in that school cared beyond the bare minimum to pass a test, and the professors were overworked as the administrator to faculty ratio in the school is 4/1. All the while those same administrators were padding their pockets with bullshit contracts to do things like add 4 soap dispensers for each sink in every bathroom. The market is irrational after all.

>>16585049
part 2

One would think I could get somewhere with that GPA right? Wrong, every academic setting I've found myself in has either been filled with status seekers or bootlickers. Bootlicking to the state, or some corporation for funding to do research but with the limitation to only report findings that those corporations or the state want to see, or in the worst case outright lie about the results. All of which is unscientific. I've played the networking game anon, been all around CMU and Pitts campus. At one point I was even phoning in for almost a year to a Republican senator's business meetings at a new college he was founding. He wanted me about a dozen other students who took the liberty to contact him to be some of the first in the program. I stopped caring when I realized he didn't. He didn't care about science or us as merited youth. He only cared about using us as a virtue signal for his own ego and that became clearer with every party/conference of his I was at where he'd go on for nearly an hour on stage about himself with language that always had just enough plausible deniability that he wasn't stroking his own cock.

It's not projection it's experience. One cannot think themselves out of material constraints and the best fruit salesmen in Chad will only ever be a fruit salesmen. Near everything is rigged, and the people rigging it are soulless. I'm in crypto with what little I've accumulated because I fully intend to settle in the woods with my girlfriend on a small homestead, go full Walden Two and leave this shitstain of a society behind. The only communities left to defend are rural, and I will integrate and defend them with my life and maybe do some biology and art and on the side. I'd suggest everyone here have a plan beyond the grind, it will get you today or on your deathbed when you're thinking about all your regrets, don't let it be your deathbeds anons.

>the federal reserve pumps up the markets
>"Under capitalism"

>>16585055
I didn't mean Walden Two I meant to say Walden by Henry David Thoreau. Apologies those books have very similar names and it is late.

>>16585049
Yes my economic class is good you are right, it wasn't always though. However rags to riches is an empirical tale as I'm sure we both understand, so we can spare the boomerism's.

I know all too well how easily the material reality is a lie and can diminish in front of you. I am also too keenly aware of how many people in positions of power abuse this facet of life for their personal gain, and indeed destroy anything of lasting value for fleeting gain.

My response to you would be this: you have been abused by the faceless and nameless evil people of the world who do not care for your well being at all, yes. What I would implore you to see however, is the value you seem to be placing on well run and moral systems. Your body is a system that is not running well and it is causing you pain and anguish, and I will say you probably have knowledge of the systematic way in which your body could be working, and that you wish it did work that way. I would like to extend that metaphor to the other issues you are facing as well, you wish the education system worked so that your accomplishments would be regarded in their proper capacity yes? And I have no doubt you wish their was a system in place for health care, or that the system worked as it was supposed to.

The solution to this in a sense is two fold as I see it. 1, You must face the realities of your situation acknowledging the inability where it lies. Some very good advice I received that has served me well is that every relation ship should follow the 80/20 rule, you both give 80% of your effort and expect 20% of their effort back. To expound on this a bit in the more big picture sense, because we live in a physical world there will always be inequality and idiocy, it is an inherit fact of life explicitly because the world is physical, it is not perfect. Thus the largest part is entirely mental, you hear many buffonish leaders say this because they have stumbled upon this truth in their stupors. (1/2)

>>16585149
What I've noticed is the people who stumble upon this truth do not realize it's roots, that the world is imperfect as said, and that their misinterpertation causes among other things wars and greed. They believe because the only defense one can mount against the world is entirely mental, that they must lean into the world almost and except the imperfections as a system. They have a logic that includes repetition built in, they don't put in 80% they only put in the bare minimum to make their system work.

This brings me to my second point. 2, you must act morally but varied indiscriminately in life to create anything close to systematic execution. You can see the systems as they could work, you have a logic in your mind that allows you to guide your actions with upmost authority knowing you have defeated the imperfections of this world mentally, and now you must define these actions by following your morals in a way they will make sense for others. Notice I said "your morals", this is important because traditional morals are a stranglehold upon you as a person, you must define your own morals with respect to others which is the varying indiscriminate part. If you respect rule following and systems, then the 80% thing to do when met with somebody who doesn't fit into your preconceived systems is to understand why they can't fit into your system and remediate. You would not slit a cripples throat because he cannot cross a bridge, you would carry him across. If you're not strong enough you would find someone who can. That is a base level of varying indescriminancy with regards to what giving 80% would look like for you, the world is always shifting and imperfect thus you cannot execute full systematic morals, and still remain morally right. As a complex being situational awareness comes in many forms, and as you strengthen your mind and find your morals it will create a loop of virtuous feedback in your life. (2/3 I ended up having more to write)

>>16585149
I do acknowledge the inability of myself as an individual. Hence why my best avenue of attack is retreat to a community that still functions, from there I am better able to live as a human and help humanity. Part of this is individual, the other part of it is duty. I feel a great a longing, calling and connection to all people. If I were religious this feeling would be the same that Christians might call finding god, this is coming from a former Catholic by birth. It might be fair to say that I've lost god but found his image in those around me. We are destined for so much greater than this. Other cultures have been egalitarian and fair. With urban society comes the possibility for exploitative hierarchy and property but there have been historical urban societies which have not chosen this path and our posterity is not destined to by any means. To ascribe these ills to human nature is to deny history. The oldest agricultural settlements of South America dating as far back as 6,500BC were egalitarian. This is one of many other examples. We have lost our way, and we will find it again. Our technology is a wonder but our culture is currently trapped in various detrimental feedback loops. My hope is that the climate crisis will finally break that feedback for the better

I have a responsibility to myself yes, but I will not take advantage, this only reinforces the problem. I expect others to act not perfectly but the best they can within their ability. Any relationship that is not of mutual aid isn't worth having. Barring certain inherently altruistic relationships like parenting. Orienting oneself like this 80/20 rule only reinforces bad actors as they can simply seize the 60% you give and feign 80% of their effort. My body could be functioning better perhaps if I weren't so stressed yes. Some of this comes from not being willing to play this game, but the alternative is to either become the exploiter or give up, neither of which I am willing to do

>>16585284
apologies I glazed over your second part before responding since it wasn't posted yet. Allow me to read it. If my previous comment is off focus that's why

>>16585284
so, to sum this up somewhat and bring it all together; As I said initially in that first response, I don't disagree with you. Maybe capitalism IS the entire problem for our ills right now and you are right that ushering in full communism is the solution. If that is true though I would expect the problems you describe to be more evocative in every way, do you really feel everyone is enslaved, or do you possibly feel instead that they are not valuing their freedoms and health as highly as they are valuing entertainment or luxuries? If you feel they are valuing those things over entertainment and luxuries, why do you think they are not providing themselves with solutions? Is it a matter of they can't, there are no doctors and no education?

You see, those evil men I talked about that have abused you, they are simply acting on their own morals with their own mental images. Even just by acknowledging they have any sort of system you are trapping yourself somewhat. The onus is on you however to create systems that they cannot break, to have the stronger moral authority. They will always try to break down your systems, but you must build up those systems you seek. Eventually these people and their ideas will be long forgotten if they don't change because your system works so well they will have to take the path of least resistance and cooperate to build their own set of morals if they do not like yours.

That's all I have, sorry it's so long and rambly near the end, I was actually somewhat excited to write this however as it was a unique topic for biz. Good luck anon and thanks for chatting with me

>>16584242
>>16585149
>>16585284
>>16585364
>>16585375
new fags

>>16584242
>Why do I get a percentage of the money THEY earned for clicking a few buttons on my brokerage account?

Because you can. In capitalism the people with capital have all the power and the worker has basically no power. The worker either works or starves to death. Most of the answers here about "taking risk" or whatever are retarded and completely miss the point.

>>16584242
What’s your favorite book?

>>16585284
So Far I agree with the second paragraph entirely. It's more that I think that removing the profit motive from society would greatly benefit everyone and bring us closer to utopia. I don't seek perfection I seek a better state for myself, my loved ones and my people (everyone.) My individualism comes first but only in the sense that I recognize that the collective good when properly implemented improves my life aswell. In this sense there is a synthesis of individualism and collectivism as both concepts mingle.

This is also what I mean when I say that the hyper rich, the owning classes the billionaires are soulless. By exploiting everyone for their own individual liberty they sacrifice even greater liberty that would be afforded to them should everyone have their needs met and be able to contribute. For example, if we had spent as many resources on a scientific industrial complex as we had shooting at each other the past century I'm almost positive we would have cured aging by now. Yet, since these people insist on being bad actors they too will die from their own shortsightedness. Such an industrial complex cannot exist within our current economic system because profiteers would dismantle it at every turn.

All my anger comes out because it is justified. If we are to ever change this world we must be willing to let ourselves feel hurt, lose hope in the current system and get angry enough to dismantle it and later rebuild it. All this said, I don't have a class issue with you anon. I made that comment in case you weren't already aware of how class affects perspective, you are so no worries there. My issue is with the billionaire oligarchs that buy countries and even they I don't wish death upon. The only violence that is justified is in self defense proactive or otherwise and they should only be harmed should they put themselves in the way of a better future.

>>16585364
You clearly have a moral authority, what I would point out though is what does it say about your morals if you believe other people to be the ills of you and likely your community's problems? If you believe other people's to be consuming too much to be the cause of great stress in both your personal and communal livelihood a through work and environment, then what do you really stand for? Do you mean that the resources should be you and yours to distribute because other people do not distribute them right? Do you think they should be killed so the resources can be distributed to others? What you are really saying by deciding that their consumption is impacting you is that you want them to Collect the resources under their moral framework (tech capitalism) but then you want the resources to be distributed under your moral framework. Your literally cannot fault them for pushing back then, they have every right to believe their moral framework is correct because it has procured them the resources, from their point of view you are destroying the systems THEY are building, not the other way around. Thus it is up to you to reconcile this.

>>16584242
Doing nothing?
Taking on financial risk isn't doing nothing
I say this as a neetbux faggot who should be all leftwing "muh gibs"
Don't feel guilt at making money, ever
Nobody is preventing working class people making basic long term investments for a few shekels each month
All it takes is not being retarded about credit and not getting into debt

>>16585375
I do believe they are enslaved yes. Their slavery is extremely abstract but their actions are still very much informed by it. My other post prior to this touches on this by explaining how they deny their own liberty with a very practical example. I also don't necessarily think communism is the answer either. I'm a leftist in the loosest of sense of the word. Leftism is the only large tendency that dares to address the future and ask questions about what we should do next. That doesn't necessarily mean its aspirations in communism are valid and I'm very open for some entirely new tendency that works better, in fact I yearn for it. As for the other tendencies. Liberalism seems content to delude itself into thinking we are still living in the post-soviet 90s and fascism is a parody of itself in that it tries to enact traditions that never existed while reasoning entirely in aesthetics which is flawed because the world is more than aesthetics. To anyone reading, see the contradiction in postmodern fascism as discord trannies hail hitler and self degrade themselves as they uwu their way into the fourth reich.

>>16585453
I don't want them killed no, you are reading my comments wrong. All I've ever said in these threads as my further comments expounded on is that relationships that are not of mutual aid barring some exceptions are not justified. As I explained aswell and it's fair because I don't think you've gotten that far into my post yet is that people who are not operating on mutual aid are in fact hurting themselves, albeit abstractly. And yes, I know that complaining on a mongolian throat singing forum will not solve my problems. I do have to actually do something and fully intend to as explained before with moving to a rural community. Discussing these things here might bring more people on board as they realize how much better things would be if they didn't participate in systems that don't benefit themselves. Simply put my friend, there are more poor than rich, and even the rich would be better off. And in any case no, I don't think I have the authority to distribute resources or any of that totalitarian garbage. Resources would be a community decision informed by real democratic practice not the oligarchic demagogy we have now.

Also, if a crowd were to storm a warehouse and seize food that is rightfully theirs. And then an oligarch were to seek paid goons on them. Then the crowd killed the goons. This would be entirely justified. And don't act as if the oligarch is not willing to kill us or that his business is consensual because it's not. What does anyone here think the U.S military is doing around the world besides guaranteeing access to natural resources through force? We could share and there would be enough for everyone if we stopped playing petty games for profit.

Sadly I do have to sleep now. This has been a good conversation and I look forward to reading whatever you respond with when I get up and this thread is archived. I'll let you have the last word should you seek it fren

>>16584242
capitalism is a method for transferring wealth from the poor to the rich.

>>16584279
So as a capitalist, when you make money you're skimming off the backs of poor laborers and receiving an undeserved profit, but when you lose money it's just some bytes in a brokerage database so who cares. Here we see the infamous commie double standards at work. The complete lack of self awareness is staggering.

>>16584242
Dam you have to be pretty delusional to come up with this.

>>16584242
At least you are conscious of how it works. You know there are some high level (not highest level) bankers or CEO who don't even know how this shit works.

>>16584401

You're right, there must always be and undercaste of slaves in capitalism to toil away for the ruing class as the system requires it to function. Everybody can't make it, it's mathematically impossible

>>16584242
>By leveraging my capital

Stop right there commtard, effort was expended in the gathering and securing of that capital. There is always effort. Nothing is for free.

>>16584268
"Risk" for the investors. Capitalism justification since, well at least 1850.

>>16584242
>Is this ethical?
no

>>16584385
It's the worker who creates value. The workers only use the invested Capital once, the first time it is injected into the company, and until this injected Capital renew itself with production and selling of the product. Then, once the Capital injected has renew itself, it's all profit from workers work for the owner.

Mises already debunked that Marx bullshit 50 years ago.

>>16584413
Nice Chutzpah.

>>16584947
>Nobody is a slave to profit,
The entire productive system is based around profit, yet you claim that nobody is a slave to profit. It's so obvious people don't see it.

>>16584818
based and nazi-pilled.