/biz/ - Business & Finance

it's a question of seeing how high we can fly vs how low we can sink

Someone please post brainlet meme

>>15165735

>>15165721
It's not bad, because the government can always counter deflation by simply printing more money.

>>15165721
Good job in figuring out the necessity part, the idea is to invest in those stocks during those time. As time goes by imagine if no one spend.

>>15165754
i.e. with the current monetary policy deflation can't happen, but inflation is certain.

>>15165809
Do you know what happen when u print money during deflation?

>>15165841
it turns into hyperinflation if you print too much

Because the velocity of money slows and gdp will tank

>>15165721
>during times of deflation interest rates go negative
>banks start charging people to hold their money
>people pull money from banks
>banks cannot loan money so housing/auto market crash

the ideal situation is 1.5-2% inflation per year

what they usually mean by deflation is a deflation in demand whi h is bad. what deflation actually means is a deflation in supply.

they purposely use misleading terms to brand deflation as a bad thing.

>>15165863
Seems like you’re fucked if you do, fucked if you don’t.

The ride will only end once we create a post scarcity society.

And no, I’m not advocating for socialism/communism

>>15165721
The idea at least in theory is not to create inflation. It's to preclude excessive deflation that would discourage further investiment. Lets say you have a first wave of investors who make huge profits by investing in a booming economy. The second wave would then be subjected to higher interest rates when borrowing money. To offset that the central bank lowers interest rates so it would even out. The short term effect of that is inflation, since money is more easily available. But then as the economy continues to yield higher returns, the currency will get more valuable.
You could just manipulate rates to keep inflation unchanged, but then you would have to make weekly if not daily adjustments to the IR.
This is all due to the fact that this is a debt based economy, in which we boost productivity by borrowing money from the future generations.

>>15165861
So what? Is GDP seriously a good metric for economic health?

>>15165863

That's only the prevailing conventional wisdom since it's how things work now. If you had 0% or small deflation, the banks still provide the utility of safe storage and mitigate the risks of having your cash lost or stolen.

It also wouldn't stop loans completely. Right now loans are made with a price that is the interest + enough to offset risk of default. It could work the same in a deflationary economy, except you'd charge anywhere from a slightly positive rate, to zero rate, or a negative rate that is still higher than the rate of deflation so that you are still offsetting loses and retaining more value.

There is a big difference between predictable steady decrease in prices (not deflation) caused by fixed supply of money combined with economic growth, and a deflationary shock caused by evaporation of credit (1929, 2008). The first promotes long-term planning and benefits savers. The second is a consequence of inflation driven by central banks and causes depression, unemployment, revolutions.

Also, let's clear up the terminology. Inflation is increase in the stock of money, increase of prices can be the consequence. Keynesians, governments and media started calling the increase in prices inflation, because it obfuscates the increase in money stock. If people realize that new money was created, they might start asking questions like who created it, who got it first before the markets adjusted their prices etc.
Before the invention of Bitcoin, all money was inflationary (even gold increases it's stock by roughly 1.5% a year).

>>15165863
Perpetual inflation leads toward malinvestment, accumulation of debt and increase of asset prices now used as store of value (real estate, stocks) because the currency is losing value. That is until the inevitable bust happens. The bad situation you are describing is a consequence of inflation

>>15165721
>Have $1 billion
>Store it under your couch
>Economy deflates 3% each year
>Get $30 million more purchasing power every year doing nothing

What a productive society

>>15165721
Imagine the smell.

>>15166536
imagine.

>>15166523
>have $1 billion
>invest in cutting edge tech like Facebook, Netflix, Snapchat, Twitter
>people turn into media zombies
>get fat stock market gains

What a productive society

>>15165721
All of you need to learn the lesson of the Baby Sitting Parable

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Babysitting_Co-op

>>15165986
So essentially you want to find the inflation level where banks breakeven?

>>15166523
If economy shrinks and the stock of money stays the same, the prices go up. What you said makes zero sense.

>>15166523
>Have $1 billion
>Economy inflates 3% each year
>Must store all wealth in companies and assets in order to not lose purchasing power
>Literal con men and speculators take advantage of this and make meme companies and fundraisers
>Throw lavish parties and over consume since there is less incentive to save

Not any better.

>>15166604
If prices go up then there's no deflation, there's inflation.

OP wants deflation so the central bank would presumably target that.

>>15166635
Inflation != increase in prices. Inflation = increase in money stock. Deflation != shrinking economy. Deflation != decrease in prices. Deflation = evaporation of credit. Read >>15166274

>>15166671
No, you moron. Inflation is the general increase in the price level.

>>15165721
Fiat infaltionary systems are just systems where the money masters can steal the value of what you hold

>>15166678
Wrong. You are using misleading (albeit mainstream) terminology. That is also why you don't understand Bitcoin and are probably invested in shitcoins.

>>15166726
Hahaha, Pick up a textbook you absolute poser.

I'm not invested in any cryptocurrency. I'm an economist and work for the government. Just popping in to laugh at the terrifically bad and misinformed posts in here

>>15166671
>literal retard
Google "inflation" you moron

>>15166743
I would also suggest you pick up a book, maybe The Theory of Money and Credit by Mises.

>I'm an economist and work for the government.
That explains a lot.

>I'm not invested in any cryptocurrency
Let's hope those index funds work out for you.

>>15166765
Austrians have their own definitions for things that the rest of the world ignores. Similar to Marxists actually.

>>15166800
I'm not desperately poor and ill-educated trying to get lotto 100x gains on hacky internet coins.

>>15166826
What word do you use for governements expropriating purchasing power from currency holders?

>>15165861
GDP is SERIOUSLY retarded.
GDP goes up when a hurricane destroys a city.
If you own your house (no mortgage), the government pretends you pay rent to yourself and counts it toward the GDP.

>>15166847
You are very generous for leaving the 100x gains for others to pick up. I take it you will buy in when Bitcoin is at $1000000 per coin?

>>15166884
GDP on aggregate is an excellent measure.

GDP is literally the sum of incomes. By extension GDP per capita is the average income of people in a country. You don't think people's incomes going up is a good thing?

>>15166910
You are a delusional. Grow up

>>15166957
That's a nice impression of pic related.

Let's talk hypothetically, at what Bitcoin price will you start questioning your beliefs and education?

>>15166957
Get a real job tax sponge.

>>15166940
Not if the cost of living increases in comparison.

>>15167072
That's why you can look at Real GDP! Amazing, huh

>>15166940
>didn't read your comment but I love GDP!

>>15165721
its almost like the whole economy is build around questionable investments and unnecessary excess consumption or the whole system would collapse in a heartbeat.

strange

>>15166940
GDP is SERIOUSLY retarded.
GDP goes up when a hurricane destroys a city.
If you own your house (no mortgage), the government pretends you pay rent to yourself and counts it toward the GDP.

if you think deflation can't happen you are wrong

deflation itself is not bad. it just implies some sort of tax to implement which is difficult to do without creating bad side effects. for example, in order for a currency to be inherently deflationary the supply has to be reduced. only way for a government to do this with paper currencies is though taxes which incentives tax evasion and causes all sorts of questions about what/ who gets taxed. it's easier for a government to print money than tax it back.

if a currency's supply is not decreasing but there is inflation, that must be because production has decreased, and so the deflation is a side effect not the cause. in cases where capital is not being efficiently allocated, increasing the money supply can encourage investment. but so can taxing idle capital. but that is much much harder to implement.

tldl its easier for the gov to print money than tax

>>15165721
Deflation is bad in a debt-based monetary system because it causes the whole system to implode.

>>15166743
Pfff ahahahah oh wow

>>15165863
growth forever!

>>15166563
trained in bullshit, gtfo you non-scientist
>citing paul krugman
hang yourself please

cheaper stuff = lower profits = lower salaries

it doesn't matter if things are getting cheaper if your salary is also getting smaller

deflationtards can't even into basic economics

>>15169020
So?

You could make the same argument in reverse for inflation. It doesn't matter if your salary increases if things get more expensive.

>>15169210
the difference is if deflation continues you wont just get lower salary, you will just lose your job. 0 salary = 0 purchasing power

>>15169237

Companies could hand out pay cuts. If they don't it's effectively giving you a raise.

With inflation, they can sneakily cut your pay just by keeping it the same over a period of time.

>>15169332
you still dont get it.. they will not just give pay cuts, they will layoff people. Unemployment is infinetely worse than increasing prices

>>15169384
If wages go down why would they lay people off?
If labor is cheaper, then who is getting fired?

>>15169410
because thats not how businesses work. Its more efficient to fire 10% of your labour than lower everyones salary by 10%

>>15169237
>inplying hyperinflation doesn't have the exact same outcome

>>15169452
So deflation is one guy making 100k a year by himself in an empty factory?
How exactly did China make all its money again?

>>15169511
when did I say hyperfinlation is good? both hyperinflation and deflation are bad. this is about normal inflation vs deflation

>>15169518
exactly, China made all those money by inflating their currency. Their devalued currency made their products the most competitive in the world

>>15165721

It encourages saving instead of buying things on credit.

You have to choose between
>instant gratification
and
>my money will be worth more in the future
>should I invest my money in this business and will the returns be better than the value increase of the money

You can buy bullshit today with Bitcoin, so why don't people do so a lot? Simple, it's deflationary. They'd rather hold and buy MORE things later.

>>15165863

Translation: Things would be priced at the their actual value rather than having debt-ridden retards buying up everything.

>>15166671

This is so wrong it beggars belief. Money is a CLAIM on value, it's not value itself. The value of money is not guaranteed. It's backed by the productivity of the users of the currency it's expressed in.

In effect this means
>inflation
>the value claimed by individual units of currency goes down
>you need more units of currency to buy the same thing you bought earlier

>deflation
>the value claimed by individual units of currency goes up
>you need less units of currency to buy the same things you bought earlier

There's really no need to complicate things further. Inflation can occur naturally when demand for goods/services goes up. For example, a population grows but the currency supply does not and productivity stays the same somehow. You could artificially create this through subsidizing the unproductive and taxing the productive members of your society.

The opposite can also happen. Natural deflation happens for example when there are limited savings available and loads of companies competing for customers. They'll naturally lower their prices to make their products more attractive, or they'll find ways to increase the value offered. Either way you're getting more for your currency spent. You can artificially cause deflation by taking money out of the market through taxation and not putting it back in. Money becomes more rare so you see firesales everywhere. The central banks call it a crisis, but they cause it. Either through increasing inefficiency through easy money or shrinking the money supply.

What do you think a business does when it has seen 10 years of continuous artificial growth? It prepares for more growth. Think of what that means for stocks.

>>15170054
You are basically agreeing with me, but are confused, because you have adopted the misleading definitions of inflation and deflation used by keynesians and chartalists.

>>15170054
>>15170054
But that's ok, the important thing is that you know central banks are causing inefficiencies in the market by money printing and interest rate manipulation.

>>15165721
deflation is a good system if you want to allocate wealth efficiently and prevent waste in literally every field; if you think it's bad you've been brainwashed by dying old boomer

in a deflating economy you can still invest and make more, money have actual value. which is the main thing they don't want you to realize even though you need over 70 iq for it

>>15165841
>print money during deflation

source mises org/library/economic-freedom-and-interventionism/html/p/123

>>15166940
GDP shows how much weamth is being transfered, not how much is being created. It's a shitty metric.

>>15165986
Deflation means if you borrow money, the purchasing power of your debt goes up *and* the dollar amount will go up thanks to interest. Your income drops and while each dollar is valuable, your debt is not tied to inflation/deflation. Business becomes harder to start as borrowing to fund an idea becomes near impossible, and businesses in general stop borrowing to expand as it's difficult to remain profitable.
Deflation kills your economy and your ability to grow. Borrowing is great, and the ups/downs of the economy aren't due to inflation but due to group psychology and euphoria vs panic.
People stop spending since their dollar will be worth more in a week than it will be today, so you can get more food/water/gas/etc by postponing expenditure, further hurting corporations and their revenue, damaging jobs.
>>15166442
Not necessarily, malinvestment is due to financial euphoria and easier money, not due to inflation. The rise of the stock market makes sense considering the economy (and actors within the economy, namely corporations) continues to advance due to an increase in aggregate productivity (either due to population growth, or technological advancement).
>>15165969
Based and Bigbrainpilled, although on the last sentence, the hope is typically that productivity/income will be higher in the future making borrowing reasonable.
>>15166671
Retard. What happens when money in use grows faster than the "money stock", thanks to fractional reserve banking?
>>15169877
Sorta on track, the problem is that you don't take the last point to the full extent: with more deflation investing becomes less attractive as holding provides its own growth while corporations suffer and give lowered growth.

>>15166940

>>15166884
Keynesians will say war is good for the economy because it increases GDP too, and it doesn't matter to them if people's standard of living goes down considerably. They are just court-intellectual cock suckers. In pic related, Krugman unironically argued this.

https://mises.org/library/government-bloat-not-growth-real-gross-domestic-private-product-2000%E2%80%932011

>>15172228
What I don't understand is how anyone can believe in this kind of nonsense. I mean, many of the flaws are glaringly obvious to any half intelligent layman, yet these PhDs in the field swallow it all down uncritically? How is this even possible?

>>15171988

See, this is what doesn't make sense to me.

You act like jobs and the economy are seperate entities from what we need to consume.

No matter how much I'd prefer to save, I still need somewhere to live and something to eat. I'd also still want things like a computer and phone, I'd probably just spend less on them or be more likely to repair or buy used ones instead always buying new and throwing out old ones.

I also don't see why businesses couldn't be invested in still and turn a profit. You would just be more discerning in order to beat the deflation rate.

>>15165721
Deflation is not bad, governments just want an excuse to print money and cause inflation.

>>15166274
Redpilled.

>>15165863
the ideal situation is not having a debt based monetary system dumdum

>>15173043
don't waste your time on this; how can you argue with a low IQ like this, if they don't have the IQ to realize that they're stupid or controlled in the first place? it's biologically impossible

leave the inflationists low IQ in their own struggle, waste of time to help them

>>15173137
Retard
>>15173043
You may need to do basic stuff, but luxury and other spending isn't needed. Why buy a nicer car now if you can wait 3 months and get an even nicer car? What about debt? You haven't mentioned that problem. I discuss investment as suffering because businesses would suffer- less room to grow and expand, reduced ROI, and by extension reduced incentive to invest.

>>15174174
you should probably consider doing something else than thinking about this; it's not for you, you can't understand, which is why you're asking questions. do something else, stop bothering.

>>15174174
So there is less expense on luxury. That sounds like an upside. More stoic minimalism and less mindless consumer culture could be a positive change.

There would still be some incentive to invest. It's not like selling goods or services would become unprofitable across the board, it would just set the bar higher for what could profit vs just saving your money. Sounds like a good way to conserve resources and be efficient.

And you can make loans with negative or zero rates you know. Just take the negative deflation rate and add a price that accounts for the risk of default and there is the market price of your loan. There is still incentive to lend money.

It's bad for the rich. The poor know how to scrape by.

>>15174309
Do you not understand the concept of a rhetorical question? I'm not asking for my own info, I'm using the question to highlight your guys' lack of understanding. You have no understanding of how corporations work, and you're acting as if you can just have debt become an instant burden and almost entirely unusable as a method of growth without problems.
You're used to being able to throw out opinions, receive no backlash, and assume you're right. You're not right. You're a fucktard. Trying working in a real corporate environment or a real market. Losing all your money on crypto doesn't count as "experience" in financial markets.
You're almost certainly a /pol/lack who thinks fiat is demonic and debt needs to be avoided at all costs, ignoring the concept of opportunity costs and so forth.
>>15174380
>conserve resources
Conserve resources means saving you money, deflation isn't conserving resources it's shitting on any borrowing/lending.
>There is still incentive to lend money.
Inflation HELPS the borrower, deflation helps the lender. You think student loans are bad? Just wait until deflation makes any sort of borrowing financial suicide. It's not that lenders would be afraid to loan, it's that borrowers couldn't borrow.
>So there is less expense on luxury. That sounds like an upside. More stoic minimalism and less mindless consumer culture could be a positive change.
You're conflating ideology and finance. Less expenditure means less jobs in the related industries.
>There would still be some incentive to invest. It's not like selling goods or services would become unprofitable across the board
I'm not saying business would be inherently unprofitable, but that expansion would slow since you'd struggle to fund expansion. Deflation slows, if not stops, expansion and therefore crushes incentive to invest. Businesses would need to use stock offerings to raise money for expansion (rather than debt), meaning continual devaluing of existing stock.

inflation good cuz numnum up
deflation bad cuz numnum down

>>15174454
You didn't address the fact that you can make a loan to someone with negative interest.

And the minimalism vs consumer thing isn't just ideology. You say less jobs in a certain industry, but less jobs doing what? Making luxury items?

In the long run that would mean more manpower allocated towards essentials, or perhaps political manuevers to reduce working hours so more people partake in but are not overburdened by the nescassarry functions of society instead of doing what is effectively busy work for a pay check. Jobs for purpose of jobs is stupid.

>>15174648
Negative interest is done to cause inflation. I didn't think it'd be necessary to state that. Higher interest reduces inflation as the velocity of money decreases (with fractional reserve banking, the more a dollar circulates, the more money is created) since people save money rather than spend. Low interest rates create inflation as spending/investing is more desired over holding onto something that doesn't gain much. You're asking me to address deflation, with inflation-causing practices introduced.

>>15174684
I'm taking the point of view of someone giving out a private loan in a deflationary economy, not the FED or a central bank controlling rates.

>>15174743
Why would you hurt your bottom line as a lender? You're creating a private entity in a profit driven economy that acts without profit motive, to assert that this would happen everywhere. If every lender did it, then you'd get inflation again. It's not about the FED "controlling rates" (fed rate is just loan rate between banks to shore up reserves, making your argument pointless), the loans you see in public are privately determined. The government or federal reserve isn't stepping in there to change interest rates.

If lenders compete with negative interest rates, you go back to inflation.

>>15165721
Jesus imagine how hot that room must be. Probably a good 120.

>>15174454
I've seen folks like you hundreds of time already on 4chan and all your kind is achieving is wasting everyone's time. you've been brainwashed by your dying boomer professor or dying boomer articles into thinking that waste is a good thing. waste is the definition of a non efficient system. and you do all that while thinking you're smart, or that economy is some kind of science. anyone believing this really have a problem. your task is to make the world more simple and more efficient, not more complex and less efficient. there's no point talking with you, see how I wasted my time, and yet you don't have the biological requirement to understand what I said. proven by how you think non efficience is good. short term thinking indicates low IQ. do something else.

>>15174790
Yeah, good point. I suppose there is no incentive to lend.

Though is there any reason this would nesscarrily lead to disaster other than our economy now depends so much on lending and debt?

>>15174937
I learned from him.

Deflation is actually good.

>>15174995
it's all meaningless and petty blabbering, don't forget his outdated beliefs and will to waste. your time is worth more than this.

>>15174995
The other dude is a conspiracy theorist. Think it through based on what I said, at the very least the general principles. What happens with deflation, what happens to borrowing, to interest rates, etc.

>>15165721
fuck man I wanna go to a lan party like that, looks awesome

>>15176122
>The other dude is a conspiracy theorist.

>>15176181
>implying

>>15174174

You don't need to print new money, which is stealing, to borrow money. It wasn't needed throughout the entire industrial revolution and it isn't needed now. There just need to be savings and a decent velocity of money changing hands.

>>15176831
Inflation isn't caused by printing money at this point, you literally mention money changing hands which is how inflation is caused these days.

>>15165861
this, deflationary assets should be a healthy part of the economy but too much stagnates growth. Inflationary mediums encourage risk but risks can bring great results too.

Look at BOMB, FUZE, SHOCK, and those other deflationary currencies they go moon in 3 months with big supply tokens staying below $5 no matter the hype. There's a deflationary CMC and reddit now.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeflationaryCryptos/

>>15176833
inflation of prices yes. Inflation of the money supply is caused by printing new money. Supply inflation will lead to price inflation all things equal.

>>15176904
No because the money supply can grow thanks to fractional reserve banking without more dollars being printed. So much more money exists without actually having currency physically minted to back it.

>>15174454

You are trying to achieve a utopia of endless growth through money printing. That is the thinking of a small and not particularly bright child. It just creates bubbles because
>prices keep rising, so people don't want to save
>savings are thrown at whatever seems to bring in more value than what is stolen through printing
>businesses have much less reason to be efficient and innovative as money is cheap and easily available

The problem was never the concept of debt, but rather who is the creditor. The value of money = units of currency / ( demand / productivity )

Increasing the money suppy through printing is NOT the same as creating demand and that is why keynesians will always destroy whatever they touch with their communistic ideals.

>>15176957
>creates bubbles
Bubbles are a result of group psychology.
>businesses have much less reason to be efficient and innovative as money is cheap and easily available
Businesses have more capital to invest into research and expansion.
>prices keep rising, so people don't want to save
Investment is saving.
>savings are thrown at whatever seems to bring in more value than what is stolen through printing
You're ignoring the value of a stock market where corporations can gain capital, and the general population can have ownership in corporations as a benefit. You're also ignoring the fact that it's a lot more strategic- you're painting a strawman of how investment actually works.
I've never mentioned anything about printing money, just that deflation is infinitely worse than inflation. Anything that thinks deflation can work as a system when it's always a crisis is deluded. Inflation has become detached from the printer, and is needed (within control) to keep everything from collapsing.

>>15174790

Banks used to be custodians of money entrusted to them but these days they think themselves the owners of it. They compete in the investment market against the very people they claim to represent. With crowdfunding you can directly lend to businesses and receive the interest without the bank taking the lion's share of the returns as "costs".

>>15176995
Banks are the centralized means of moving capital around, and have actual backing/regulation by the government. Crowdfunding is ultimately doomed to fail when applied to the whole economy because not everyone is interested in picking businesses to lend to capably, nor will funding be moved across the country/world. Crowdfunding ignores the advantage of larger operations (namely efficiency) for the sake of making the individual feel comfy/cool. A bank has people employed to do what the people crowd-sourcing do on a whim.

>>15176917
I'm aware, printing it may be 1% of the $ in circ and we'll still think of banks as printing. No one thinks of it in the literal sense We've all seen the videos on youtube

>>15177041
So then why call it printing. It's not printing, it's money velocity. Look bro I'm trying to play Minecraft can we just chill?

>>15176989

Cycles are natural. Infinite growth using finite resources is impossible. Deflation is necessary to weed out bad businesses so new, better businesses can grow as people become more picky in what they spend money on. It's going to happen either way because it is a natural phenomenon. This government/bank centric thinking only serves to create the worst bubble, an unsustainable population size. The downturn will get very ugly, very fast, very unnecessarily.

You can argue for wasting resources all you want, nature does not care. Soon all this magical thinking will result in the biggest calamity in known human history.

>>15172476
The average academic is a 110IQ midwit, barely above the average cattle.
They're retards is why.

>>15177015

And the bank gets money through the government, so you either end up with banks controlled by government or government controlled by banks. At any rate, it is a handful of people picking "winners" like all this green madness. It is going to end badly.

>>15177055
No one says making money because of the other cultural uses. Clicking money? Adding money? don't feel natural. Printing does. You guys have known computers create most $ for years right?

>>15176917

Print is a C/C++ statement and is used widely throughout computer languages. Print to pdf doesn't create a paper copy either.

because holding and concentrating wealth is bad, which is why nobody does it.

>>15177112

It depends on whether that money is earned in an exchange of value or robbed through taxation

>>15165721
ideally you dont have inflation or deflation but +/-0. but thats just not achievable as it implies a turbo stable economy without growth or decay.

if you can choose between deflation and inflation you always want a small amount of inflation. deflation leads to hording money and stalling the flow of goods.
economy is at its core about the goods and services. money is just a tool for exchanging these. you want the focus on goods and services, not money. therefore avoid deflation as it focuses on money on the cost of goods/services: money gets horded, goods/services stop flowing. if you have inflation people
spend their money and stop hording cause it loses value. the flow of goods is not only upheld but increased.

its a 1x1 relation, not hard to get or to remember.

>>15173043
It would be harder for new innovations and startups.

A healthy economy should probably have to popular mediums of exchange, a digital deflationary one used for taxes and a physical only inflationary one used to spend on everything else. If I ran the US I would make BTC the only way to pay the government and it's employees because it's history, security and public nature. And make everyone else take dollars.

>>15177143
Thank you. I never said inflation was an inherent good, but that deflation is massively retarded and that inflation is *needed* to avoid deflation.

Inflation through money printing is simply a less visible form of taxation.

Fractional reserve lending is simply theft which only comes to light when people try to get their money back.

Both are objectively pure evil of the worst kind and should be punished by death.

>>15165721
because it goes against investment and creates "dead capital"

that is why utility coins ultimately are better than vehicles like bomb if the utility works out look at pocketnet.app or sent if you understand that they provide utility regardless of what investors say or do

bitcoin got the initial value from buying drugs on the blackmarket silkroad was a billion dollar enterprise that traded exlusively for bitcoin

>>15166800
I know where you come from, but actually the government economist is right.
A long time ago inflation was defined as an increase of the money supply,
which is also the definition Austrians still use today. however the common definition has changed in the last 50ish years to being the overall increase of prices

>>15177247
in the context of crypto it is obviously that it's about monetary supply because most shitcoins are never used by endconsumers

>>15177201
That's a pretty antisemitic thing to say.

>>15177231
BOMB's value is mostly to econ nerds like me who hated inflation long before BTC. We think of it as a math experiment. Utility coins are better for using but Deflation of asset and increase in demand is king for speculating. Problem with utility coins isn't the users, it's the speculators who drive them up above their fair value based on supply and demand.

When I first heard of smart contracts I thought countries will release their money on these and pay benefits through TX fees built into the code.
They haven't but I should have known computer nerds would do it first. That and my love of compounding dividends is why I go hard for things like SHOCK.

>>15165721
No incentive to invest is poison to the capitalistic bubble system.

>>15165721
Deflation: people don't use their money because they know they are going to appreciate (they can buy more with less). In doing so, the supply of available money decrease, thus their value increase, further incentivising non-spending. Congratulation: you entered a self-reinforcing spiral. When nobody spend because they want their money to appreciate businesses go bankrupts, people become unemployed, and the economy tank. Hyperinflation is destructive, but hyperinflation is annihilating. And a mild inflation, 2%, is preferred for encouraging investments and at the same time give CBs a policies' implementation tool.

>>15178247
*Hyperinflation is destructive, but hyperdeflation is annihilating.

>>15165721
Deflation is not bad. Thats just what our overlords want you to think, because inflation directly benefits them. Listen to this.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-cryptoconomy-podcast/id1359544516?i=1000446001855

>>15178247
This view has been passed along so much the we believe it. The truth is people can't help but spend. Look at BTC, people spend every minute despite most knowing how stupid that is for long term wealth. This view that we'll hoard until we die discounts human nature. Humans can't save it all, we have to eat.

>>15165721
god damnit those were the golden years. cs 1.5/1.6 or hl, your bros in the summer and some coins for the internet cafe.

aftershock.vip has deflation mastered deflation with dividends

>>15178247
Good dog, here's your treat!

>>15165721
Deflation is bad for people with lotsa money or money tied up in assets such as a home.

It's not bad for anyone else.

because the western economy is an inflationary, debt based consumurist serfdom that only works if people are encourage to constantly spend their pay checks on things they dont need while further indebting themslves and becoming increasingly dependant on the system

imagine what would happen if for just one week people decided to stop consuming bullshit and borrowing money? the whole economy would collapse

ITT
retards who take adhoc theories on economy as hard science

>>15179106
Cryptos are opening peoples eyes to economics and it's theories. Deflationary currencies now moon every day because of BTC game theory filtering to smart contracts. It's easier to get rich of shit like SHOCK than something like LINK. The proof is in the charts

>>15165721
deflation is bad for the economy because people hold on to their money instead of buying things. because they know those things are cheaper tomorrow.

>>15165861
GDP doesn't mean a damn if real individuals are living better lives with higher purchasing power

>>15166523
>if society incentivizes long term planning and saving up capital for huge investments like starting businesses rather than forcing everyone to spend right now or avoid losing money/borrow money they might not be able to pay back to make big investments that's bad!

>>15166743
>I'm and economist and I work for the government
Why the fuck would we trust a single thing you say when your entire life is provided for based on supporting the government and their economic policies

>>15165721
>Why is deflation considered so bad?
Because it results in fewer opportunities to make money. This has three consequences: firstly, because there isn't as much profitable work available, less work gets done. Secondly, debs are harder to pay off. Thirdly it creates a feedback loop: less spending results in less opportunity which results in less spending...

>>15165754
>It's not bad, because the government can always counter deflation by simply printing more money.
This would be true if the government actually did so. But if you look at the events following the GFC, you'll see that governments were extremely reluctant to do so. Hoovernomics (the idea that governments should balance their budgets instead of doing what's needed) took over. This enabled the 1% to gain more power over the rest of us (though not actually more wealth).

Remember, most people are, like >>15165859 still under the illusion that printing money leads to hyperinflation like it did in the Bretton Woods era. They don't realise that with an effective taxation system, little or no sovereign debt* and the currency value set by the market, hyperinflation is impossible. Printing money does have an inflationary impact, but one that's small and controllable.

>>15177112
I dont have an image brainlet enough for this post

>>15177201
Absolutely
>>15179056
To me this creates incentive to pass down your assets/makes it easier for newer generations to attain what the older one had quicker as the older gens pass away, am I wrong there?

>>15166884
>>15172228
>>15172476
GDP is a measure of economic activity, not of standard of living. Standard of living does matter, and Keynesians don't claim otherwise.
War is not a desirable way of reviving the economy, but it is a proof that government spending does revive the economy. For sustained economic growth, it would make sense for the government to spend the money on infrastructure, education and science.

When a hurricane hits, people are likely to work more in the recovery effort, so the GDP will rightly reflect the increase in activity. But that's only a short term thing. In the long term GDP could suffer as people are diverted from more productive activities. If they'd otherwise be idle it's OK, though if that's the case it could be indicative of economic mismanagement beforehand.

>>15179264
>people not buying stuff they dont really want or need and planning for the long term is bad, because it makes our number charts go and ABC measures go down! Who cares about the actual day to day impact on real people

>>15179424
just saying how it is. "hm i need bread but if i wait until tomorrow it'll be cheaper". apply that to literally everything and everyone. no inflation/deflation is better and a very, very small inflation is best.

>>15177247
It's worse than that. Austrian Schoolers are a bunch of greedy narcissists and bootlickers who use intellectual dishonesty to justify their predetermined conclusion that helping those who need help is bad for the economy.

They use the obsolete definition of inflation when it suits them, but if you ask them why they think inflation is a bad thing, they with to the modern definition and pretend it's the same thing.

In reality, of course, there's a huge difference that's the result of advancing technology. To get the real rate of inflation, you have to divide the increase in the money supply by the increase in production.

A couple of minor corrections:

>>15179503
>they with to the modern definition...
should be they switch to the modern definition.

>>15179340
I forgot to add the footnote that sovereign debt is a country's debt in a currency other than the one it issues.

>>15179459
People still buy bread mongrel.
This is why “deflationary spiral” fear mongering is retarded.
People would still invest too, but only in projects that are worth more than the value gained by saving.
Is anyone going to acknowledge that this is a better way of combatting malinvestments than letting everything run until something breaks and we shore up the economy with government spending and more inflation/debt? Isn’t anyone going to point out what a sick system that is? How it isn’t sustainable?

>>15179660
remember that even gold is inflationary as more is dug up.
but fine, let's just ignore history then.

>>15179340
Deflationary spiral is fearmongering. People don’t eat dollars, they need things and will buy them, and there will be investments worth more than the benefits of saving.
The work available will be more solid and better-managed.
Debt will be discouraged so less of a problem in the long-term.

If you view deflation as a cooling period, it makes a lot of sense, especially when its viewed in the context of our Perpetually hot economy that runs until something breaks.

>>15166910
Apart from GDP what do you think we should use to measure it

>>15178390
Exactly, mild deflation is healthy and mmt is a scam to keep wageslaves working. That's all inflation does, it chains you to your job and forces you to invest in shekelstein's stock portfolio whose company valuations are based on investment speculation. Shit companies need to go under but in a low interest rate environment these toxic companies can leech off debt in perpetuity.

>>15179740
>He thinks I’m opposed to inflation totally in its entirety as a concept itself.
Projection coming from people who can’t imagine a system that would incentivize people to save without starving them for lack of financial incentives to buy food like >>15179459 said.

>>15179459
Except that no one will just spend nothing because it will be cheaper tomorrow, they need to eat today and tomorrow and the day after, etc. People will want to buy things every day, people will have every day expenses, people will still buy for enjoyment and frivolous things, they just wont be pushed to blow as much money as possible because its losing value rapidly.

>>15179503
No one in the Austrian school thinks we shouldn't ever help people in need retard, they're against forced wealth distribution by an aggressive third party who siphons off a huge cut. Do you think Austrian schoolers are all anti charity and anti gifts?

>>15179873
Can't believe I feel for the deflation bad meme
https://www.reddit.com/r/DeflationaryCryptos/comments/co1xhm/bomb_enters_crypto_blows_everything_up/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

>>15180322
https://www.coindesk.com/blockchain-token-velocity-problem

can believe the shit I am reading here
Why are you inflation lovers even in crypto?

deflation as they shill it to you means a deflation in demand as a result of a high inflation at the end of a cycle. there never even was a real deflation, which would mean that the money supply would shirnk. velocety is a meme as big as central bank funding rates because you can try and change them for some time but it will adapt eventually so that over time you did more damage.

>>15165721
What is this crackazoid nightmare I'm looking at?

>>15180329
>token
stopped reading there

>>15166940
Spotted the jew. Your tribe will be genocided once and for all next crisis.

>>15180410
because it's not a perfect way to study economics? You guys really can't read can you? But you can buy link. haha

>>15180442
token holocaust is in full swing because the market finally came to the conclusion that they would inflate bitcoin and are nothing else than crowdinvesting methods in delusional ideas.

>>15180518
What? Do you speak english? Have you seen DDEX? I make 50%-100% gains almost daily.
These are mini economies of trades. Everything recorded. They're perfect case studies for how money moves, supply vs demand, stock to flow, game theory and human psychology. They're transparent and have websites devoted to processing the statistics around distribution, TX, holder %, active addresses. This info is amazing for me.
Can we stop screaming scam at everything we don't understand? Some of us want to learn.

>>15166940
number go up! grug like! prove economy strong like ox! cave now cost 10 times number of berry as before

>>15180578
i see the bitcoin dominance rise everyday but maybe you still live in 2017

>>15180673
BTC dominance goes up which is most of my portfolio but the very tokens I've moved on have been killers. See I like real profits funneled into my tokens so I've been heavy in BNB since they launched and the quarterly token burn gives me the opportunity to sell at and buy back lower. I make extra satoshis and BNB with every burn. The 50X i got from BOMB was smart move for you but I only put $1,000 in BOMB because it was airdropped. So my BTC went up to $50,000 at the same time that my BOMB did, allowing me to buy more BTC, ETH, KCS, SHOCK. So I love BTC dominance going up because i flip gains into BTC. It's how I quit my job, fucking airdrops flipped into real estate

>>15180673
Study all of this shit for years and it will force itself into your view. The cycles of the crypto market are coded in public for fucks sake.

>>15179755
People can't have cooling periods because they're dumb as fuck and going to go 100% on the first thing they can, regardless how stupid or unreliable it is

Then when the cooling period comes, the people with all their eggs in those baskets lose everything.

Just look at shit like YouTubers and old-time internet "marketers" who were getting ad dollars from microniche sites, or people dropshipping and then being ruined when someone cuts out the middle man (them). They just don't realize how temporary and fragile their good circumstances are, so they upgrade their lifestyle when they make more money and then lose it all when things change even slightly for the worse.

Money doesn't work with deflation. There's no incentive to invest so new businesses/projects don't get started, banking can't exist profitably so people have nowhere to store their money, people who already have loans when the deflation starts get completely assraped and consigned to debt servitude or bankruptcy. Every single economic downturn we've ever suffered has been caused or accompanied by deflation.

All of your DUDE FIGHT CLUB LMAO shit about people investing in facebook is more a critique of modern capitalism than inflation. Its dumb investors who place hypervalue on that useless garbage

>>15180934
>Money doesn't work with deflation.
>Money doesn't work unless shadow orgs steal from the people
There are plenty of inflationary cryptos, like Grin.

>>15180934
You fell for the meme. In what world can people not spend? Even investors will only hoard if the returns out weigh the risks. The market will create products needed and money would find it's way because spending is relative to your competitors. If no one invests, that's the perfect time to make money and the market will realize it and adjust. You guys are really dense.

>>15177808
>Implying this is bad

>>15179413
Why is imputed rent counted toward GDP. Seems like nonsense to me to pretend that every home owner is paying a fictional rent to themselves.

>Standard of living does matter, and Keynesians don't claim otherwise
Then why is GDP growth the only thing they apparently care about?

>>15165721
The argument that I hear the most, is that a deflationary economy incentivizes hoarding. Society doesen't really progress if everyone is trying to safeguard their assets.

>>15165721
Deflation is bad because it makes the people wealthy instead of their kike masters.

>>15165969
>But then as the economy continues to yield higher returns, the currency will get more valuable.
thanks rabbi

>>15179755
>Deflationary spiral is fear mongering.
It's happened before, and if the policies you favour are implemented it will definitely happen again!

>People don’t eat dollars, they need things and will buy them,
The fact that you felt the need to say that suggests you didn't understand my argument. I never said nor implied that spending would drop to zero.

>and there will be investments worth more than the benefits of saving.
Again, I never said otherwise. But there will be fr fewer of those investments in deflationary times. Worse still, without growth in the money supply, the success of one business is likely to be at the expense of another.

>The work available will be more solid and better-managed.
What idiotic crap! The work available in deflationary times is always far less secure.

I suggest you stop basing your opinions on the malinvestment hypothesis; the delusions of Austrian Schoolers bear very little resemblance to reality.

>Debt will be discouraged so less of a problem in the long-term.
And with the discouragement of debt, those who aren't already rich will have far less opportunity to make money.

>If you view deflation as a cooling period, it makes a lot of sense, especially when its viewed in the context of our Perpetually hot economy that runs until something breaks.
Repeatedly overheating and cooling is likely to cause stress fractures, leading to breakages. Similarly, sending the economy into deflation is likely to cause huge stresses in society. Heating and cooling shouldn't be periodical - they should both be continuous!

>>15179459
>>15179264

Ok, assume for a second that you're right and we NEED inflation for some esoteric reason.

Why not airdrop this "new" printed money to everyone equally? Why do only a handful of people get all this new money to spend as they please?

>>15180039
>No one in the Austrian school thinks we shouldn't ever help people in need retard, they're against forced wealth distribution by an aggressive third party who siphons off a huge cut. Do you think Austrian schoolers are all anti charity and anti gifts?
Austrian schoolers may donate to charity, but they consider doing so to be bad for the economy. And more importantly, they want the poor to have to rely on charity, even though there's often a strong stigma against accepting charity, and the state is far more able to help as it's far better resourced. They dismiss the government as "an aggressive third party who siphons off a huge cut" and fail to comprehend that the state can help the poor to become more productive. They think then role of the state should be to defend the rich's right to exclude the poor from their property, while giving the poor nothing in return!

>>15181770
>Why is imputed rent counted toward GDP.
Are you sure it is? If so, your country is fudging its figures! GDP should be the sum of wages and profits (before tax). It may make sense to compile figures including imputed rent, but you shouldn't call it GDP.

>Then why is GDP growth the only thing they apparently care about?
Under normal circumstances, increased GDP does lead to increased wealth. And things that increase wealth without increasing GDP are generally beyond the realm of economists (relying instead on social and/or environmental policy).

>>15166847
Uh oh, Kevin O Leary, the eternal boomer, is that you?

>>15166940

Oh my god you fucking nigger. Median income shows the real numbers of earnings for the population. GDP could rise in Zimbabwe but that would only mean some nigger dictator would be gaining more money and the rest of the population would starve to death.

>>15182558
Money can be given, spent or loaned. If it is given, the government doesn't get anything tangible in return, and doesn't get any money back directly (though after it's spent it gets a substantial portion back through taxation).

However, though it's generally not an attractive option to governments, giving it to everyone equally is effective when you need to boost the economy quickly. Thus in 2009, nearly everyone in Australia got a $900 payment from the government.

>>15181464
Brainwashed by "inflation good" npcs. Who keeps saying inflation is good? Banks. They aren't biased in fiscal policy?

>>15181770
>>15182738
>owner-imputed rent isn't part of GDP
idiot. Read up on how the system of national accounts are compiled.

The reason owner-imputed rent is considered part of GDP (which appear as part of personal expenditures) is because we're trying to track the value of housing services. Is there a functional difference between the activity occurring when you pay money to rent a home or if you just own the home you're living in? Why should one count towards GDP and not the other?

A whole bunch of things have to imputed when you try and compile an accurate measure of GDP. If you want another example, just think of if someone mows their own lawn: if you paid someone to mow your lawn it'd show up in GDP with a dollar value attached to it. If you mow the lawn yourself, then the exact same economic activity is taking place but no money is changing hands and so it wouldn't show up in GDP unless economists impute a value for it. GDP is a shit measure that's often misused by brainlets but thinking that economists haven't thought of any of this is just retarded

>>15182611
You disqualified yourself with that comment.

> they consider donating to charity to be bad for the economy
Show me just one Austrian who thinks this. What they argue for though is that you already care for the other people in your economy if you
distribute your money according to your needs. And some Austrians might argue that Social Investing is more helpful than charity, because
1) gifted money is psychologically valued less
2) the need to pay back the money creates an urge to put it into effective use.
You don't have that with free money.

> they want the poor to rely on charity
yeah, most would argue for that. But all of them argue against state funded social programs.
In a free society there would be more money in charities, because nowadays people think
they already spent a third of their income on social causes through taxes, so why give more?
It was very common to help out your neighbours in times of need. before the welfare state.

> state is an aggressive third party
well I don't want to need to explain why taxes are theft ..

> role of the state should be to defend the rich's right to exclude the poor from their property
haha now you've gone full communist retardismo
it should defend anyone's right to not be stolen from. But you know, a thief who protects people from thieves is kinda paradox

Whew really liked your comments except this one

>>15165721
>anon doesn't realize that bread will be at $1,000,000 per bag.

>>15168930
>tfw this was unironically taught at high school

deflation is considered so bad because inflation benefits a few people at the top who engineer an army of useful idiots in the form of first year college students, the ideal drone as they combine ignorance, arrogance, free time and desire for recognition
you might notice the word deflation can be replaced by any number of things "society" considers bad
the unfortunate truth of public debate: an idiot who spams his dumbass opinions several hours a day is thousand of times more visible than someone who has a life and posts maybe once a week
you train that idiot to sound acceptable and you engineer millions of such idiots, and there is no hope for reasonable men to make their thoughts heard
a large part of population is dumb too, so they default to consensus on any matter
so the process for elites is simply to disseminate an opinion and then tie emotional baggage to it (blue team red team, "i paid 100k for that economics degree which makes me an expert")
but ignore all of the above if this is too much and ask yourself a simple, logical, question: does the economy work?
as an engine to serve human needs, does it accomplish its purposes?
and if not, if it's a failure, why should you believe conventional knowledge based on the premise the economy is a success?

>>15182913

What do you mean, in return? The government doesn't own that value. It takes the purchasing power from existing money in circulation and dilutes its claim without the express consent of the current owners of said stored value. It's really no different from some nig with a gun stealing your wallet. The government steals value through money printing and then redistributes it to its friends.

>>15182611

The state has no resources. It has guns and a taxable population.

I'll start with my poorfag offering :>(

>>15165721
Because asset owners (jews) dont want prices on what they own falling

>>15180031
>they need to eat today and tomorrow and the day after, etc. People will want to buy things every day
i'm not really talking about essentials like food.. think further, think something like a boat for leisure or a remote controlled toy car. with deflation on average people will totally save more because it is worth more the next day. meanwhile with inflation people buy today because it's worth less tomorrow, making consumers consume more. this is good because merchants sell their stock and creators notice their goods are desired, making them innovate.
no inflation or deflation is better than deflation and a very, very small inflation is best

>>15185084
This guy gets it

>>15185811
>endless waves of keynesian brainlets

>>15186281
virtually all economists in the world agree deflation is bad. only economic illiterates and schizos think otherwise

>>15186281
the strongest argument.. how could i possibly carry on?

>>15186430
get above 75 IQ and realize that the counter on my id is superior to 0, that might mean that I've already said everything necessary, also others, read the fucking thread instead of wasting my time

>>15180824
>They just don't realize how temporary and fragile their good circumstances are, so they upgrade their lifestyle when they make more money and then lose it all when things change even slightly for the worse.
This happened to me. Was cleaning up with ad revenue, paid so much in taxes it was retarded, so I decided to spend more investing in the business. Business failed, money spent on trying to grow/save it, drop in income cleaned me out. Now Im a 'minimalist'.

>>15185811
Example of deflation in today's world - phones. Everybody knows that the equivalent of today's $1000 flagship phone will cost way below $500 in two years. Those $1000 flagships still sell like hotcakes even if people don't need to replace their old phones.

Learn about La Belle epoque - a deflationary period of 19th century gold standard that saw unprecedented flourishing of economy, culture and sciences. Maybe also learn to think for yourself and stop parroting retarded shit just because it's "mainstream" or "academic consensus". Its fucking pathetic.

>>15182427
>It's happened before
It never happened before and will never happen.

>>15166274
>Bitcoin, all money was inflationary (even gold increases it's stock by roughly 1.5% a year).
BTC inflates at a decreasing rate, but it still inflates the supply every 10 minutes.

>>15166678
>>15166765
Notice how they both need to use insults to convey their point. They don't attack the idea, but the individual. It's so transparent..

>>15187653
More bitcoins are lost than are created every 10 minutes.
Only 11 millions out of the 18millions are available, and it will become better and better overtime as more and more owners die without giving their keys to anyone.

>>15177055
>So then why call it printing. It's not printing, it's money velocity.
That's not what money velocity means. You can have different money velocities with the same total supply of currency.

>>15165721
Fuck I miss LAN parties

>>15165721

Why are there random shirtless people at a LAN party

>>15187691
That'll be true eventually if it isn't already true. Touche.

>>15165721
The only way for REAL deflation to happen is by increasing our production capabilities. If we can harvest more resources and turn those resources into goods then the supply of everything increases which drives the price down and causes it to decrease.

Lowering the population while maintaining your production capabilities through increased efficiency etc would also cause deflation.

>>15187534
>It never happened before and will never happen.
You think the Great Depression was a hoax???

>>15189986
The depression was at least extended on purpose, bernanke apologized for it.
Deflation is great in crypto game theory, that's why DDEX pumps every day.