/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>14425825
who the fuck are these boomers and why should I care what they say??

>>14425825
“Please give us some”

that cryptos value comes from machine labor aka miners

>>14426187
Machines don't labour, people do.

>>14425825
outdated modern ideas for a postmodern world

>>14427064
Are you saying one thing is true on Tuesday but wrong on Thursday?

kek who gives a shit

>>14426151
This family

>>14425825
Saving human labor via automation via smart contracts and decentralized oracles would seem valuable to them

>>14426288
the miners have to set up the software etc...

>>14427412
Computers were supposed to save labour but everyone is a wage slave now.
>>14427416
uh huh. and what exactly do the miners do except for installing scripts on their machines after that? Selling bitcoin on exchanges?

>>14425825
According to Marx, perhaps pseudo-commodities, fictitious commodities, or fictitious capital.

>>14428438
Thanks, good response.
I'm disappointed in biz. I remember this place was full of driven people who had shit to stay about stuff but now it's just linkies, brappers and bobos.

>>14425825
>the source of all value is human labour
Just false. If I find a chunk of gold its value does not depend on how much time or work I put into finding it. I work to find it because it already has value. That being said cryptocurrencies are a form of demonic binding spells as foretold in the book of revelations with the mark of the beast.

>>14427523
And thank me later

https://imgur.com/mYHu4FB

>>14428590
What point of "labour is the source of value" do you not understand?
How can you produce something valuable out of gold if you don't put it to any use aka, work with it or buy shit with it that other people made? The only reason gold is valuable is because you can buy the fruits of labour with it (if we use it only as money, not talking industrial uses here).

crypto is the same exact principle with 'machine labor' instead of human.

>>14428590
bad example, think about products like chairs, air conditioning or a mirror, they are valuable because of the labor and time that went into making them, but only because there is demand for them

>>14425825
Marx is a faggot and so is OP.

>>14428711
Screwdriver without a hand to turn it is absolutely useless. Machines need humans to produce labour.

>>14428749
/thread

>>14428690
There's nothing to understand because it's absolute nonsense.
>The only reason gold is valuable is because you can buy the fruits of labour with it (if we use it only as money, not talking industrial uses here).
>ignoring use
Everything about this so called "theory" which is not coherent enough to even be called that is about ignoring all the factors except the ones that fit your predetermined narrative. Considering thinking in terms where the value you place on an apple is based on the labor it took to pick it instead of the fact that it's nutritious makes you an idiot.
>ignoring this and that
>discounting this factor
>if this were like this
>never been tried
>etc

>>14428859
C'mon then, explain how is crypto producing value in and of itsel.

>>14425825
this was phase 2. we are now entering a time where the fruits of mans labour will be fully realized.

>>14428722
And thank me later

https://imgur.com/A6seIGZ

>>14428878
>>ignoring this and that
>>discounting this factor
>>if this were like this
>>never been tried
>>etc
What the fuck are you raving about here?
>Considering thinking in terms where the value you place on an apple is based on the labor it took to pick it instead of the fact that it's nutritious makes you an idiot.
I don't think you understand me very well. The source of everything that is valuable in the domain of human free market of exchange (services, goods, anything) is the fact that people provide those things for you (they work). No one is denying the nutritious value of an apple here. Are you trying to say that there is value to bitcoin that I am denying or what?

>>14425825
is that Fredrick Douglass? that dude was awesome!

>>14429039
Marx, John Locke and Adam Smith.

>>14426187
No the value comes from the money people are willing to spend, the money they spend is backed by labour

>>14428590
That gold is worthless until it is sold for currency made through labor. Investment. Or someone else's labor/sacrifice. Obtaining wealth is obtaining sacrifices : )

>>14425825
We’re undoing decades of lost value from inflation. Every great man in history would applaud the crypto effort.

>>14426288
People had to labor to build the machines, and people had to labor to maintain the machines during the mining process. You don't just click the mine bitcoin button.

>>14429155
Inflation is not evil in and of itself if you consider that country's economy can rise and shrink. The problem is fucking usury via money-lending banks/student loans etc that charge interest.
I do not see how bitcoin is tackling the latter.

>>14429027
I'm saying your naive old marxist shit is completely irrelevant. You can only force it to seem relevant through contrived thought experiments or use qualifiers that make the entire point you were trying to make irrelevant. Wtf is a "human free market" anyway? I mostly trade with robots.

Bitcoin has value because secure decentralized public transactions have value. Demand for it doesn't require human work. Yes everything in the human world originally stems from a human doing something but that braindead observation does not help model anything relevant.

>>14428761
>Screwdriver without a hand to turn it is absolutely useless.
Heidegger will tell you it's not even a screwdriver unless it's in a human hand. Otherwise it's just metal and some plastic on the end.

>>14429227
Hence why I said that people labour, not machines. Why are you replying to me?

>>14428897
Well, as far as Bitcoin goes, and aside from the labor involved with mining it, it's also a store of value. Labor is converted to Bitcoin and stored until you want to convert it to something else. That causes the price to increase. Along with degenerate speculation of course.

>>14427412
Indeed, frees humans from menial and mundane work to pursue higher causes and develop science and tech further.

>>14428590
Try finding a chunk of gold.
Then come back.

>>14429151
Gold has some industrial uses, but it is largely used as a store of value also. The price isn't reflected in teh labor to mine it. Other labor is stored within gold also. Marx and Smith were aware of this characteristic of Gold. I have no idea what Locke's economic opinions were. Gold and BTC aren't traditional goods or services.

>>14425825
"You had two years"

>>14425825
Also, i still prefer for currencies to be backed by something tangible, like gold and precious minerals/metals.

>>14429265
Why the fuck do you think I'm a Marxist? I posted Locke and Smith next to Marx. May as well throw in John Paul II in it as well as he also understood that source of value is human labour.
>Demand for it doesn't require human work
This is where you are wrong.
>Yes everything in the human world originally stems from a human doing something but that braindead observation does not help model anything relevant.
You are contradicting yourself here. It cannot be braindead observation while also being true.

>Crypto is communist
Trannies trying to keep /pol/ out. cute

>>14425825
>14425825
"BTC 'twis the most purfect form of money ever created."

>>14429348
I was bolstering your point. You don't have to disagree to reply.

>>14429441
Marx theory of wealth as basically nothing to do with anything Lock or Smith did you mouth breather. Marx theory in its entirety is semitic bullshit

>>14427523
>>14428527
Miners maintain the ledger. They pay for power and bandwidth. That's the labor.
Also, labor generated the fiat for the purchase of the BTC. During purchase the value moves to the BTC.

>>14429436
Doesn't NASA think they found an asteroid made of gold? Enough gold to make everyone on earth a Billionaire.

>>14428897
Because it replaces a banking industry.
>>14429027
>I dont think you understand
You are right. You don't understand.
>>14429246
Except it is.
>>14429246
Rewards the saver.

Holy shit reddit must have banned some faggot these questions are like from 2015.

>>14429246
inflation is evil, it's purpose is to try creating perpetuel unsustainable growth.
when the growth stops we are screwed

Basketball americans piss on your grave

OP is a faggot and this thread belongs to /pol/

>>14425825
It's not.

The source of value is demand.
Oil isn't hard to extract nor ship these days, its value isn't correlated to work in any manner, it's price is entirely linked to demand. We pay the barrel at a certain price not related to the (very primitive and easy) work put into pumping it from earth.

Another example: you can spend thousands of hours building some shitty object, it still isn't going to worth shit if there is no demand.

Peepee
poopoo

>>14429515
I dont think it works like that. But i am very certain that those who will mine it will sell it to the colonies to sustain shipbuilding and colony development and economy
>Earth is only for export of qualified professionals and exotic rations
>Colonies rely on low gravitation and surrounding resources to save fuel and sustain industrial economy
>Cheaper to freight things down the gravity well than up

ABCDEFG Every poster below this one not spamming bullshit is a jew

>>14429425
>Gold has some industrial uses, (...) The price isn't reflected in teh labor to mine it.

Lol. They lied to you sweetie. It's okay, you are far from being alone.

>>14429353
>it's also a store of value.
Not sure about that. Same thing is being said about gold, art or sandwiches and water in survival situation.

The only relevant modern philosopher is sergey nazarov

>>14429441
This is the most retarded bullshit I've heard all day. First the people who made these arguments were using them in corporate contexts, it was based on an argument that labor is inherently more valuable than capital because capital without labor is meaningless and labor is valuable intrinsically. Their idiotic ideas however were wrong at the time of conception and even more wrong now, capital can purchase machines that build machines that build products. Value without humans ever touching the chain. Capital can buy machines that need very few humans to operate them, machines that produce far more value than any of the laborers. As far as crypto goes they would deny it's value altogether as anything other than a means of exchange so would discount it based on lack of adoptions and it's role in speculation.

>>14429587
>Another example: you can spend thousands of hours building some shitty object, it still isn't going to worth shit if there is no demand.

Oh shit, i've never thought about this, let's do it!

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>>14425825
more importantly, what would Andrew Jackson say?

>>14429441
>Not a commie
That's what they all say.
>You are contradicting yourself here. It cannot be braindead observation while also being true.
Yes it can and this is what you and your commie friends in academia don't get. You're focusing on irrelevant factors to construct a narrative to serve an ideological purpose. There's no use for the labor theory model except to fuel violence in the name of "class struggle". You can construct a million different models based only on valid data points that still predict nothing correctly. This is what the labor theory of value is, made up horseshit that sounds good to idiots.

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>>14429659
>Value without humans ever touching the chain.

Lol, what happens tonight, free stand-up comedy?

>>14425825
The source of all value is ideas.

G.

>>14427390
This one is the real and final redpill.
I've read a lot of philosophy and books about politic theory, economics, etc. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is what you achieve. What you are. What you get. Anything else is basically mental masturbation.

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>>14429659
Could you please try that in Africa, everything that you just said about machines and shit, without proper workforce and infrastructure to do all that?
>>14429691
>You're focusing on irrelevant factors to construct a narrative to serve an ideological purpose.
What exactly is my agenda here? Exposing that people who work are producing value?

>>14427192
if the question is is it Tuesday then yeah its wrong on Thursday

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>>14429784
>At the end of the day the only thing that matters is what you achieve. What you are. What you get. Anything else is basically mental masturbation.
Nowadays an islamomidget playing against 6'4" tranny in globohomo olympics and losing is considered a great achievement.
I don't think you read the right material, desu.

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>>14429841
I don't care.
Not my achievement.
Power > mental masturbation about what is right or wrong.

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>>14429793
I don't know your motivation but you're regurgitating commie memes created to spread violence.
>the source of all value is human labour
>(some) people who work are producing value
These are two very different statements.

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>>14429901
>Power > mental masturbation about what is right or wrong.
I smell a strong Nietzsche stench.
Hence why we now have the clown world where the truth is the opinion of the powerful.
You don't care as long as it's not affecting you directly.

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>>14426288
what about fully-automated machines
yeah yeah, maintenance and whatnot—but what about machines that maintain themselves
yeah yeah, raw materials and whatnot—but what about machines that collect or create their own raw materials

could these machines and the work that they perform in place of what we can agree on as "human labour" not possibly produce value

G.

>>14429966
You are insulting me by calling me a commie but what the fuck, it's a mongolian basket weaving forum.
>the source of all value is human labour
>(some) people who work are producing value
These are two very different statements.
I don't get it, are you a fucking NEET or something? What happens to a village of alcoholics that don't work and sit on guberment gibs all day long?

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First man pictured here only shared hate towards greatest economist ever lived Adam Smith and parasited on his work. fuck that loser

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>>14430042
Point me towards such machine. I'll send you 0.01 LINK.

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>>14430201
t. based nigger poster
bumped my thread

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>>14429629
goalposts status: moved
>>14430221
R

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>>14430267
>goalposts status: moved
How? You called it store of value.

>>14425825
Crypto can still be traced to human labour retard

Could you faggots stop jerking off on here and move this shit to /pol/ or plebbit. Can't you see I try to spell Nigger

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>LToV
Cringe and bluepilled.

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>>14430353
Nigger poster here >>14430358 can also be seen as working but something useful must be done with that labour for it to be considered valuable. Niggers in Africa screaming and dancing with their dicks out in the rain could be considered music but comparing that to music Europeans produce would be an insult to the human soul. I'm not saying bitcoin is not valuable as it's useful to some extent but it is definitely not a source of value.

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>>14430075
You're a mouthpiece for commie ideas here and now so definitely a commie. You may not believe any of this in real life but here and now you are a communist radical trying to destroy my nation, family and religion with your insidious propaganda memes like the labor theory.
>I don't get it
How can you not?
>What happens to a village of alcoholics that don't work and sit on guberment gibs all day long?
I don't know, go to rehab? Depends on a million different things, do they have robots making alcohol and food for them? What's the point you're trying to make?

G.

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>>14430669
>You're a mouthpiece for commie ideas
If it says "labour" it must be a commie. Is John Paul II a commie as well then? He talked about labour being a source of all value. You mentioned religion, so there you go. Or are you gonna call Catholics commies too?
>I don't know, go to rehab? Depends on a million different things, do they have robots making alcohol and food for them? What's the point you're trying to make?
The point I'm trying to make that alcoholics who sit on their arse all day cannot and will not work therefore won't create any value and will die out quickly. What the fuck man, why are you pushing your robots everywhere?

>>14430336
Because it is a store of value.
>John Paul II
You are so daft to the reality of history.

Your thread was derailed by your own ignorance.

>>14430812
>John Paul II
>You are so daft to the reality of history.
Elaborate.

>>14430846
>John Paul II
Corrupt asf, bro. Satanist.

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>>14430752
>He talked about labour being a source of all value
Which is a commie idea, he was naively spreading commie propaganda like you are. How is the simplest thing so hard for you? The HRT messing with your brain?
>The point
Is both irrelevant to the distinction between the statements you quoted and also wrong as demonstrated by the robots example.

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>>14430866
Any proof?
>>14430903
Spreading commie ideas but fighting against communism. As I thought, you'll say Catholics are communists.

>>14430903
>also wrong as demonstrated by the robots example
Remind me, who created robots.

>>14431014
There is no relationship between how much work a human expended to create a bot and how much value the bot will provide. That humans did all human stuff is a braindead truism with no relevance to the economics.

>>14430075
>it's a mongolian basket weaving forum.

This place is retarded. If you want smarter people, try /g or /lit.
However, it is good to stop on /biz from time to time, if you can convince these psychologically damaged greedy morons, you can convince everybody. They are like a test sample for narrow minded invididuals.

They'd be like "o dam let the computers do it i guess lmao"

>>14428690
Labor is completely irrelevant without knowledge. Hunters walked around extremely valuable things, but had no use for them even with an army of laborers because they lacked knowledge. It is knowledge which is the source of all value.

>>14430978
yfw you realize the nazi, commies, and catholics are all the 'same' thing.

>>14425825
3 retards

>>14431076
>There is no relationship between how much work a human expended to create a bot and how much value the bot will provide
I'm guessing then there's not relationship between how much time Boeing/Airbus dedicates to creating planes vs https://youtu.be/DJAZRLn0Hig
That's your argument, man.

>>14431120
Both go hand in hand. Hence why arabs can't do shit with oil in their lands themselves and hire people from countries who know how to work and have the knowledge. You cannot separate mind from the body my dude.

>>14431122
find me a church without the sinners, I'll got there on Sunday.

>>14431178
The issue is you have no grasp of how any system at all even works. One "unit of human work" can create a system or robot that sustainably creates value forever after that one unit of work was expended.

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>>14431295
That's exactly my point. The Church, the Fed, the Swamp...it's all the same sickness.

BTC is the cure.

>>14431315
Could you care to explain then how "units of human work" create these systems where robots create value sustainably without constant human labour to support those robots? And where exactly these "units" go after they were expended?

>>14431485
So, what's the meaning of life then after you get cured by BTC? What then? Brappers and lambos?

>>14431503
into your belly and ur dick

>>14431531
Again, that's my point.
"Control a nations currency and I care not who makes its laws."

>>14431244
>You cannot separate mind from the body my dude.

We not only can, the entire arc of industrial history has been doing just that.

>>14431503
and not just support the robots but also to guard them, to make sure there is no employee malpractice, to make sure regulations are followed etc all depend on units of work

>>14431559
It's not always been the (((case))) though.
>>14431561
And look how well that worked out!

>>14431561
> We not only can
You only think you can. Yet both cannot exist without either.
>>14431726
That's my point. That's what BTC solves.

>>14431821
>That's my point. That's what BTC solves.
How does it solve IT?
Like this - http://www.alt-market.com/articles/3239-the-globalist-one-world-currency-will-look-a-lot-like-bitcoin

>>14431920
> Look a lot like
But isn't. An un-corruptible currency is a good thing. You just proved my point.

>>14425825
Machine labour has value too!

>>14425825
lmao only one of those 3 thought that

>>14429227
People had to labor to build people, and people had to labor to maintain the people during their lives. People don't just appear out of nowhere and work for free, they need maintenance too!

>>14432008
I didn't prove anything. Bitcoin is not much use at this point, the fact that it's sitting at ~12k is meaningless. Some people were made rich, we're all gonna be like people in China soon at that's about it.

>>14431503
What's wrong with your brain? I have spoonfed you way more than you deserve. A physical robot is an example of a system that I hoped you could grasp but apparently not. You can set up systems including robots that create things people value. How much work you put into setting it up or how much human work has to be done for the system to continue is completely irrelevant to how much value it produces.

Everything you say is wrong even the shit about usury, access to good credit is the greatest force lifting people from poverty in history.

>>14432147
Write this joke once machines can create machines and have their little machine families with their little machine chores and little machine schools where little machine children go to, son.

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>>14432174
You are both missing the point, and proving mine.

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>>14429629
>Not sure about that. Same thing is being said about gold, art or sandwiches and water in survival situation.

>There can be only one store of value.
It ain't Highlander, anon.

>>14432321
KYS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>14432205
>You can set up systems including robots that create things people value
And yet the person who created that robot is reason why the robot is here in the first place.
>Everything you say is wrong even the shit about usury, access to good credit is the greatest force lifting people from poverty in history.
This is the jewiest thing I have ever seen on this website uttered by an anon. Congratz.

>>14432431
>And yet the person who created that robot is reason why the robot is here in the first place.
Imagine typing that.

>>14432431
>Apes created humans
>Therefore only apes can create value!

Genius, anon...

This whole thread is stupid. It's a bunch of capitalists arguing over speculation of how Marx's labor theory of value might apply to crypto, when we all know that value is what a willing buy pays a willing seller. Nothing more. It's supply and demand. It's not even a theory, it's Natural Law.

>>14432600
zeros of truth

>>14425825
To that I would say:

DANCE WAGIE and thank you very much for supporting my lifestyle slaving away and hating your life

>>14432431
>This is the jewiest thing I have ever seen on this website uttered by an anon. Congratz.
My grandparents lived in huts. My entire nation only has any substantial wealth now thanks to access to credit in the last century to build infrastructure. You don't know anything and should sue your college for your money back.

>>14425825
oh that's locke I thought it was ickabob crain might as well be it's not like anyone listened

>>14432523
>>14432562
Belgians left niggers in Congo railways, roads and mining equipment that the niggers neglected. Give them robots and let's look how those robots create value then.
>>14432600
In Kenya they have markets where people buy used clothes. Kenya could produce it's own cotton and make textiles and shit, give people something to do and become a little bit richer than it is. Instead they choose to suck up the shit 1st worlders dump on them and do nothing instead, creating no value. There is demand, there is supply - yet the country is in fucking shambles.

>>14425825
>the source of all value is human labour.
uhhhh, anon... i... are you stupid for caring what dumbfucks thought long long ago? ...yes, you are

>>14432779
You die if you don't eat vitamin C, therefore only vitamin C creates value.

>>14432725
Let me guess, your nation has a strong work ethic and is most likely Christian? Somehow with all those millions dumped in foreign aid to help Africa they still live in fucking huts.

>>14425825

>These three men share one common idea: the source of all value is human labour.

source?

that's absolutely false to put all three together, OP is a pseud, troll and did not deliver.

>>14425825
$1000 EOY

>>14431726
>And look how well that worked out!

It's worked tremendously well. Like a thousand years of summer condensed into maybe a century and a half.

first you hear on this board

The US dollar is backed by the military and the petrodollar.

then you hear

The US dollar is backed by labor.

now you rehash some psychobabble on a quartermaster knotting ahoy asking the engine room if they know coal from wind

>>14432918
LOCKE'S LABOR THEORY OF PROPERTY
It is there that Locke presents his famous justification for private ownership of goods and land on the basis of the effort or labor which individuals expend to produce goods or to cause the land to produce goods of value to human beings.
It is relative to labor as explained by Adam Smith: The value of any commodity, [...] to the person who possesses it, and who means not to use or consume it himself, but to exchange it for other commodities, is equal to the quantity of labour which it enables him to purchase or command.
Marx argued that the theory could explain the value of all commodities, including the commodity that workers sell to capitalists for a wage. Marx called this commodity “labor power.” Labor power is the worker's capacity to produce goods and services.
>>14433010
Now we have globalist CEOs pushing globohomo agenda and the governments backing them up while at the same time we're fending for ourselves at mininum wage jobs, fighting migrants and also trying to have families with both parents working for schlomo. Wouldn't call that thousand years of summer tbqh.

>>14433150
>Wouldn't call that thousand years of summer tbqh.

The fact that your problems are about people pushing dumb shit instead of "can I get enough food to survive" is pretty good evidence that it is. Even wagies get enough to eat; their primary asks are shelter and upwards mobility. Through industrialism - and capitalism - we have managed to provide food security for billions, something that had never before been achieved in human history. That's not to say things couldn't be better, only that they have been worse.

>>14433276
>That's not to say things couldn't be better, only that they have been worse.
But desu, that's what I'm talking about here. I'm not denying that we are doing well from the material point of view. The attitude of this board towards "MUH LINKIES WILL SOLVE MUH PROBELEMS" is just damn right insane though.

>>14433381
Ideologies fit material constraints, not the other way around. Societies develop rituals, culture, all that shit in order to get people to adhere to the same ethical standards, which helps society survive in a world defined by scarcity. The current ideologies which thrive in the developed world are not bound by survival needs. Wants far outweigh needs everywhere here. Accordingly, our ideologies are grounded in wanting: materialism, outrage culture, social justice crusades (both SJWs and the Moral Majority).

>>14432779
>There is demand, there is supply - yet the country is in fucking shambles.

You're skipping over a lot of shit. Like how hard it might be to accurately predict when and where it's going to rain from one year to the next - even with modern tech.

The point I think you're trying to make is that supply and demand without labor never materialize. I think that's true most of the time. Supply and Demand never go away though. Most of the time some labor needs to be mixed in, but not always. Labor alone without demand is worthless.

Marxism lost sight of the Supply and Demand part and thought they could pull it off with just labor, and it has produced a mountain of evidence of disastrous results.

>>14432811
based vitamin-c based theory of value man

>>14433614
>The point I think you're trying to make is that supply and demand without labor never materialize. I think that's true most of the time
Yes. Marx was a fucking dumb cunt for thinking he could determine the value of a thing instead of letting the market determine that. My OP was interpreted as if I was a fucking Marxist but I only said that all of them classical cunts agreed upon one notion - the ultimate source of value is, after all, human labour...
>Most of the time some labor needs to be mixed in, but not always. Labor alone without demand is worthless.
When Trotsky was visiting America he saw some women peeling potatoes or something in the street and he got angry at them for not taking part in the revolution. I'd rather have those women peel fucking potatoes, man, if you catch my drift. Not saying we should chop wood for the sake of chopping wood but we should re-think the whole idea of where the actual value comes from. I know it's a sensitive topic around here when there's a bunch of NEETs pretending they are next Warren Buffet talking about cryptos changing the world but it was worth it anyways.

>>14433824
Some cryptos enable lots of useful work to be done. If projects like LINK or HOT take off, they'll automate entire industries while provide a higher quality of service. Those people will then be freed up to produce more useful goods and services. But the net total of goods and services provided will go up.

>>14433150

Smith's theory of property is disproven by the unquantifiability of labor as argued limited according to the order of time and illusion of choice.

The flaw in Locke's reasoning is that he doesn't argue the objective nature of ownership and holds remuneration of labor as equitable and just when the issuer is in fact not redeemable on equal footing to the theory of classes, I won't discuss the rest.

Putting all three together is distastful because you're mixing their school of thought and era.

What if banks created cryptocurrencies, would be a better question because the freedom of an individual does not depend on labor unless you take into account the founding fathers principles and how hypocrite persons are corporations, you can't mix politics and this kind of discussion on the surface because the rabbit hole goes very deep

>>14433927
Hopefully it does and all the best to these projects, honestly.

>>14434061
All I'm saying is they all said what they did - labour - source of value. They all managed to recognise that. Is this something we can agree upon, at least?

>>14434227

completely independent from them and even humans, from the beginning one starts with bartering and Maslow's pyramid is a better start, because when you mention labor as some panacea to justify value it's as if the era of Henry Ford is omnipresent and people are objectified and commoditized by their spans of stimuli and action or inaction. Some network TV CEO literally said that they sell available brain time for advertising to draw a parallel with automation mentioned with basic attention token or brave browser, these tokens do not exemplify automation of any sort, it's rather artificial intelligence which is lagging in development and adoption.

Labor as a source of value is distasteful, much more to this world has value than labor. Start with bartering, wheat for milk for example, how is that labor when all options aren't present and it's a forced necessity? Instead of labor which is then industrialized, the individual must be placed at the centre but that would be idolatry of an ideology, value is not simply labor or forcing other people to work.

>>14425825
They came from a different time.

>>14434457
Okay. When the Benedictine monks came to tribes that today are known as Germans in ~900 AD, those tribesmen were chasing pigs in the forests and punished their criminals by drowning them in swamps. What the monks taught the Germans was this: ora et labora - work and pray. Happened elsewhere in Europe too but not many places can boast the success Bavaria had. Fucking everyone buys BMW, Porsche, Audi across the world because of muh Made in Germany. Those fuckers know how to work, simple as.
Without the monks who came over and taught Germans how to work and value labour, well, there wouldn't be Germany as we know it. Call it distasteful or too simple but it is what it is.

>>14434644

Across the Rhine, fleeing the catholic church were tribesmen as you say that didn't show wealth and knew how to work hard and mnew how to make watches. Monks started brewing beer for their fasting. This wasn't imposed by an order but in the natural course of having existed as an antithesis to simply hope but not a nemesis even though declared as heretical by the holy see.

Instead of perpetuating dogma, these tribes could live freely in the forest and settled villages. That's a far cry from the power ordained from of conflict as posited by power relations as described in crime and punishment.

>>14429827
>>14429848
>>14429875
>>14429899
>>14429933
>>14429953
kek

>>14426151
Based and zoomerpilled

>>14426151
>>14435147

>who the fuck are these boomers and why should I care what they say??

Because you would be immediately labeled as a parvenu or nouveau riche.

>>14429784
nothing wrong with mental masturbation. reading up on philosophy for some euphoria hits is akin to recreational drug use, exercising, or sex.

>>14433824
>I'd rather have those women peel fucking potatoes, man, if you catch my drift.
>>14433824
>we should re-think the whole idea of where the actual value comes from.

I think I see what you're getting at, but that's not going to happen. The people in charge learned the lesson from the French Revolution, and they have decided where value lies. I think that's why humanity should expect some sort of "accidental" massive culling within the next century.

>What happens to commoners when elites don't need them anymore?
>Do the elites let commoners gently suckle on the UBI Titty?

Elites used to need masses to build pyramids, and temple, to farm the fields, to fight the wars, to produce the goods. Now, machines do all of that.

500 million is the target number. They put it on display for all to see. Those who can see it have time to get themselves on the right side of the fence. Those who don't see it, or can see but can't get themselves on the right side of the fence, will be culled.

>>14435344
I am aware of that: the likes of David Attenborough keep talking about it and I think that the climate change is going to play a significant part in this culling as you call it. Their agenda is anti-human, demonic, Satanic.
It is not going to be an easy fight for them, though. Evil; is allowed only to a certain degree.

>>14435477
Sometimes it's good to cull. Like in Genesis.

It'll be humane. My bet is mass "accidental" sterilization that is reversible through expensive fertility treatments. Then let that environment select for reproduction. You can have as many kids as you want, assuming you have the $25,000 cash needed. Once the population balances, they'll "discover" a cure, adn then we move to Star Trek.

Just need to tweak the AI a little more before we decouple from teh labor system that's been in place for ten thousand years. Inflationary economy will keep running until it's time. Debt will keep piling up, because it won't matter. A new monetary system will be used, assuming AI doesn't solve the supply problem and we need money.