/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>14345613
Immutable ledger with token that will in USD value over the long term. Relatively liquid and easily transferable compared to art, real estate, or gold. Pretty simple

>>14345656
*Increase

>>14345613
cuz you can buy pizza, drugs and CP with it...duh

You can write in a notebook that bob owes you a dollar and in order for someone to erase that line he'd have to go against the cumulative computing power of half of the network, of which is mostly powered by rivers worldwide

>>14345613

First mover and name brand advantage

>>14345656
>Immutable ledger
it's the only one trustless permissionless publicly auditable ledger that is secure

>>14345656
>>14345735
How is that unique to BTC? Don't BCH and BSV do the same thing and a little bit better?

>immutable ledger
>proof of work
>smart contracts
>hashing power
>SATOSHIS!!!

>>14345755
only btc is secure, all the shitcoins are nicehashable in case of bch and sv it's even worst. any bigger btcoin miner could 51 them singlehandedly for fun.

>>14345613
Basically the hashing power

>>14345613
It's like co2 emmisions. You're buying the right to pollute the chain with your transactions.

>>14345818
Its only secure until China decide otherwise
They've gotten above 50% of the hashing power a few times. (No idea what it is now, I'm all in alts)

>>14345834
Ah, and it's the most immutable, trustless and secure ledger on the planet

>>14345613 fuck off

iFinex / Panama Papers / Tether / Bitfinex

>>14345613
Keynsians can't steal it.

>>14345613
literally nothing. its a pure marketing meme. BTC is a trainwreck and will die within the next 1-15 years. only question is how long this ponzi scheme can go on before it implodes.

>>14345841
This is a good thing. When bitcoin reaches 100k and the US government realizes their gonna get fucking rekt if they dont pour huge huge subsidys in energy and electronics into the bitcoin mining industry its gonna make a huge fucking electronics race to keep hash equilibrium

Store of value:
> durability
> stable supply / scarcity
> cannot be counterfeit


The same things that make art and precious metals good for stores of wealth. It does these things better than precious metals and art with the bonus that it’s also easier and cheaper to store and transfer.

>>14345841
hahspower is very well distributed today and major pools each represent thousands of private hash owners who are free to leave the fuck out of them if they don't play nice. there is no such thing as "china owns hashpower"

>>14346033
more than 51% of the hashpower comes from miners located in China. If one day the Chinese government decides to privatise the farms there isnt a thing in the world those farm owners can do. In a matter of hours China's government will own 51%+ of the hashpower and it's "bye bye buttcoin"

>>14345942
This, btc is big breakthrough for humanity but theres reson real developers in space refear it as "store of value" meme

If promising projext x starts as one thing, create army of early og-s and top buying bagholders, fails miserably one thing it's supposed to do as btc did as digital cash, than that same army of og's and bagholders create narrative how its "store of value" now and defend it as religious zealots to keep it going up pricewise:

how the fuck is it asset class and not failed project turned into multy level marketing?

>>14346065
Valid risk. This would crush bitcoin and all crypto value of China just took control of the mining.

>>14346066
there is a self correcting mechanism
miner will dump on the fools

>>14345613
t. warrenbuffetted cuck

>>14346066

Alos bch and bsv are worse 100x times,less than 10% hashpwoer and security, NOONE will use them as money IF THEY ARE DEFLARATORY ASSET, same goes for any payment coin desu, nano, you name it... this is crynge AF

Maybe eth gets it right, maybe in 3-5 years...

Meanwhyle i sugest to ride btc train NEVER bet against collective delusion...

>>14345613
21 million.

>>14346094
More importantly. If in the future America's government is tied to bitcoin or Bitcoin is some kind of global currency this gives China an economic nuke which they can cripple any other nation's economy with. Imagine if people have btc pension funds and whatnot, China can literally cripple America's economy in a press of a button. THIS is why bitcoin will never be anything outside of a speculative asset for traders to make money with, and why it will never be even close to 1m or the marketcap of gold. No country will allow this ticking Chinese timebomb to infest into their economy.

>>14346065
that's not how this shit works, and also won't be bye bye bitcoin even then. the chinese government may ban bitcoin mining on principle but since it increases their gdp i don't think they will enforce it with enthusiasm.

>>14345613
literally none
btc is that high because it's first, LTC is superior in every way excepted the supply x4 higher ( i'm not ltc shill this is just a fact )
the fumiest thing is hearing bulls say that peoples recognize the value of btc now even tho nothing has changed in 3 years and btc is still slow low tps with high fees
this market is 1% tech 19% speculation 80% manipulation

>>14346202

>that's not how this shit works

Do you even know what you're talking about? With 51% of the hashpower they can 51% attack the network and make bitcoin unusable.

>but since it increases their gdp i don't think they will enforce it with enthusiasm.

Bitcoin mining is probably a VERY small fraction of their GDP which they would gladly trade in order to cripple the USA's economy.

>>14345943

man could you fucking imagine. a Manhattan Project level of arms race to keep the majority of the hash rate out of the hands of the Chinese. then they retaliate and it's and endless feedback loop. and McAfee keeps his dick.

>>14346159
>>14346267
This is stupid. If thats ever a valid risk it would become a race to stabalize hash power, bitcoin wouldn't die the laws and infastructure around it would just change retard. "O no y china do dis?" Would not be a problem stupid. Use your brain

>>14346322
You're an absolute moron. A race to stabilize hashpower would cost billions a year and for what? Just for some stupid digital currency? No country is gonna think it's worth it.

Also dont forget all the ASICs are made in China dumbass not any other country.

It is a valid risk and because of that risk no country will ever actually adopt bitcoin.

are you all stupid?
LIMITED SUPPLY
This is the first digital asset that is scarce and secure since its existance.
you heard of supply and demand right? what happens if the shit works and the supply is limited amd finite.

NOTHING IN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS AS SCARCE AS BITCOIN.

It may seem hard to grasp with a low iq, but we actually inveted sound money only 10 years ago in human history for the first time.

>>14346618
A currency without inflation in this day and age is bound to fail you brainlet, read an economics books.

>>14346608
Lel, a race to stabalize hashpower would 1. pay for itself in future infastructure 2. Pay for itself with current gains and taxes 3. Provide much needed funding into areas of computational research that are already getting billions in grants. It only seems stupid to you because you are unable to extrapolate information into the future, you can only see the here and now it seems.
The only part of your post that is legitament is that china produces most of the Asics. You are correct about that, and that poses a security and supply risk whcih is valid. That makes a nation level hash war even better inflating costs all around so we can afford to build domestic production capability for cheap for many areas which could pump domestic growth.
Alternatively, and this is where bitcoins game theory element really shines in my opinion, if china controls all the hashing power and the asics causing a 51% "bomb" as you put it would crash their own industrial base, crash their mining industry, and generally cause them to suffer huge losses all around when the upside to owning 51% of the hash power is too great if they keep the system functional. Bitcoin is a self correcting system that eliminates the need for bad actors in the system at large.

>>14345613
read thecaseforbsv.com
there's a detailed analysis on btc's value

>>14346608
>A race to stabilize hashpower would cost billions a year and for what? Just for some stupid digital currency? No country is gonna think it's worth it
More money has been spend for stupider things. Remember all that money thrown at flying to the moon only to find out there is nothing on the moon?

A 51% attack is a real risk. If it ever really wants government acceptance and also acceptance by major financial management institutions other countries will have to subsidize mining. Maybe they subsidize it in countries with cheaper energy, like South America and India, to keep China below 50%.

I see the potential and bitcoin but also risks like the 51% vulnerability and threat of government regulations.

And as another anon mentioned, other cryptos are superior for daily commerce as a currency. Faster and cheaper.

I think bitcoin will stay around as the “gold” of crypto and another coin will act more like the “cash” of crypto. People will use bitcoin for long term holding and use something else for daily purchases.

I like Litecoin and Dash. Even though Dash is more centralized leadership structure it’s actually a strength in my opinion. It’s a trading tool like Visa or MasterCard. Not all of the currency coins have to be so decentralized to be useful.

There is a cult around Bitcoin that ignores real risks to its demand, and also ignore alternative coins that do some things better than Bitcoin.

>>14346737
tell me that again when you use those economic books to heat.
>t. inflation of supply and inflation of demand is the same.

>>14346831
nobody cares about BTC
it cannot serve even a basic supermarket
the only purpose is to sell higher to idiots like you

>>14346794
>pay for itself in future infastructure

What? Do you know how many billions will be spent every year on producing new miners and the electricity they will consume? A race for hashpower will make it so that the hashrate literally skyrockets and whoever's in that race will have to throw money into a pit every single day to keep adding more and more miners only so China doesn't get an edge.

> Pay for itself with current gains and taxes

What are you talking about?

>it would crash their own industrial base, crash their mining industry,

This wouldn't cripple China's economy, but it would devastate America's economy, or any other country who's economy is tied to bitcoin. It's a sting China would be willing to take in order to have global influence. The sheer fact that they own 51% of the hashpower and that a hashpower race would be exponentially more expensive each year will dissuade any country into adoping bitcoin. It's just not worth it.

>>14345613

The Lindy effect.

>>14346618
They are all stupid. It’s clear a lot of people even who are long bitcoin aren’t looking at the fundamental features. Talking about bashing power and the ledger. That’s not what makes it useful for heading inflation or as a currency.

At its core bitcoin is an inflation hedge because of its fixed supply. It’s the exact same thing that makes art of deceased artists valuable to the uber wealthy.

Crypto currencies have the most stable supply of any tradable medium created by man. Also cannot be counterfeited and is easier to store than art or metals, and more durable than art or metals (can’t be destroyed by fire, water, corridor, etc).

>>14346830
We received many indirect bonuses from learning how to get to the moon. The technological progress from LEARNING how to get there was worth it. Also going to the moon was a one time thing, a hashpower race will be neverending. America adds haspower, china answers by adding more hashpower, america answers by adding more hashpower and ad infinitum.

>>14346869
Doesn’t matter if it can serve a supermarket. Gold ingots and Vangoh paintings cannot serve a supermarket either yet the uber wealthy still buys and holds them as an inflation hedge.

Honestly you can same the same thing about art. It’s stupid and worthless imo. It’s value exists only because of its fixed supply. Same exact thing with Bitcoin.

We’ve already reached enough demand where bitcoin won’t go anywhere barring government intervention or a successful 51% attack.

>>14346935
>bashing power

>>14346884
>>14346940
Thats the point, it will be trillions spent to gain an advantage because bitcoin will just continue being more and more valuable. The opposite side is you dont do that, you let china continue having hash authority and never adopt bitcoin, and as china continues expanding its sphere of influence along with the rest of the BRICS nations suddenly you are locked out of half the worlds trade simply by not adopting the tech and the initial purchase to get a foot in the game is thousands of percents higher. A hash war is inevitable, if this was 2015 and you made this argument on silk road fourms I would have maybe agreed with you but we are at half a trillion right now, globally adopted, and its 2019. The libertarians were right, countries can either adopt now or fail.
As far as the tech goes if you cant see what amazing advances could be discovered for computing if a hash war ensues I cant help you. I would argue if this hash war broke out the tech gained would be astronomically more significant on all fronts then the space race. Waste management, resource allocation, computational capacity, every one of those things is a direct growth oppurtunity of a bitcoin hash war and solves problems that are currently looking extinction level bad for humanity.

The high fees and wait times, obviously

>>14347157
China has no plan to ever adopt bitcoin. What's gonna happen is no country is gonna adopt bitcoin because what's the point? Which country exactly is going to give up their control over their money? Also bitcoin isnt half a trillion, are you confused? Nor is it globally adopted lol. Actually continuing to argue with you is a waste of my time

>>14347067
btc has that in spades lol

>>14345656
>easily transferred

>>14346267
they can't just magically assume control of that haspower overnight nor there is any reason or will to do it.
also they can't cripple the us economy with bitcoin wtf are you smoking?

>>14347252
North korea has adopted bitcoin already dude. Or do you think they deal arms to other nations with visa cards and cayman accounts still?
Either way fine by me, one of us will be right. Good talking to you as well

>>14347252
Countries won’t adopt it, but they try and regulate it so they can tax it.

>>14346935
its really sad the state we are in where people seek wealth through unproductive means.
money in itself has no value, only if you have the economy on the other side of the balance sheet you can use money to measure value. With fiat money we arent actually able to measure gdp, it is insane. securities valued in billions of usd everybody knows are worthless because the underlying asseds defaulted years ago are just one example of the insanity and purposely misleeding inflation numbers. the fact that interst rates are not free and the supply is literally unlimited all this is part and parcel of a system of fraud of every productive human being.

>>14346737
>economics book
>Das Kapital

sup

>>14345656
what if you could tokenise an asset, and make it a security token?

>>14345755
i hate the summer

>>14346608
mining is becoming increasingly decentralized contrary to popular low IQ belief

also what is difficulty adjustment

go study

>>14346869
fucking SUMMER aaaaaaaaaaegghrhfd

>>14347816
Explain how I'm wrong

>>14345613
Simply, in an unconvoluted way:

unforgeable scarcity.

the lack of people who know who satoshi is

op.. it's like religion.. there are thousands of religions.. based on faith.. bitcoin happens to be the one most people worship. like religious there is nothing there. only the shared belief between many people that this is the real religion...

real talk. bitcoin doesnt scale. so it will be replaced by better tech that is cheaper... and that will be replaced by better tech that is cheaper... etc etc.

---because there is nothing there.. only peoples belief that it is worth something... peoples believes can change... it will only change if better tech comes along especially if you can buy it cheaper and get more gains

All the anti bitcoin kids are stuck on 1 aspect of an alt that isn't relevant at all
If you're not secure immutable distributed fair in consensus you ain't shit
Sacrificing that for a bloat chain go run ico scams is embarrassing and fraud
The richfags buy bitcoin because they can afford 140iq advisors who all settle on bitcoin is king
You need to understand what a blockchain is and what makes it valuable next you can work on features

and there could be millions of crypto.. so every price wil get diluted. to zero.. and only coins that are backed by real assets like decentralized versions of facebook libra will be used.. this is what i believe... there will be dilution... and most people will use asset backed crypto... but cryptcurrencies will still exist.. like ponzi schemes for some gamblers.. moving from one to another

>>14348695
>who all settle on bitcoin is king
lets see if they still settle that bitcoin is king when bitcoin has peaked at 1-10 million per coin.. that is when they will move to another coin,... for profit..it is inevitable

>>14348704
Pow is backing bitcoin

>>14348768
pow, pos... more ways will be invested.. better ways.. check out spacemesh as an example

>>14348818
Pos doesn't ensure consensus

>>14345613
It doesn't have any. Its the first ever example of a purely artificial supply/demand.

Actually that's not true, video games did it first. But like any video game with a player based economy, if people suddenly decide that X is not worth any value its price goes to 0 instantly since there may be supply but no demand.

In terms of a store of value it absolute is not in any shape or form. Its not a commodity, and nor is it a fiat, its something new and disconnected from both. While governments treat it like a commodity thats just because they cbf designing new laws to fit a new category of asset.

Gold is nice because its a commodity which increases with inflation, not against it, unlike fiat. If inflation goes through the roof so will gold eventually. Golds naturally just a good thing to store because its so easy to store, and has always had some use in human society, arguably more use today than any other time. It also only has a limited supply and all the other traits of a stable commodity. Unlike for example diamonds, which we can now recreate artificially, which has eroded the entire diamond market by 30%, and is likely to destroy it even more over time to the point diamonds are worth basically nothing as tech improves.

>>14347856
>do my homework

Some of you kids need to do some research on 51% attacks. "Bye bye bitcoin" No.

51% is weaksauce.

>>14345613
Your money.

>>14349831
To expand the thought just a little. If china's govt had 51% of the hashing power, the most powerful 'attack' they could pull off, by far, would be to simply collect and hold the freshly minted coins.

>>14350003
i don't buy into this fud but that's not the worst by far. if anyone has 51% of hashrate he can
1 shadow mine bitcoin and purposefully exclude transactions and include their non public double spends
2 mine empty blocks and push them on the network effectively making transactions impossible
3 enforce censorship (less severe and more realistic version of 2)

>>14350172
4 extort people for extremely high fees
forgot too add that. if there is no competition...

>>14350172
>>14350216
the answer to this of course would be bitcoin altering the hashing mechanism with a hard fork and everyone leaving the captured chain with useless heaps of asics overnight.

I am in BTC primarily because of Civil asset Forfeiture. I have my private keys. its my money. no government or three letter agency has the power to strong arm a bank or service provider and seize or freeze my money because they felt i didnt pay enough taxes

>>14347047
Art has value beyond just having a fixed supply. It's initial value comes from the artist's recognition by society. This gives the creations of the artist a mythical quality. The value of the art depends on how popular the artist was. It's like owning a piece of the coolest kid in school. Some people want to be popular so bad they will literally spend millions of dollars to leech it out of someone who was actually admired for their ideas and personality.

>>14350251
Right. And what's more the bad actors are forgoing all the profits the could have now and tomorrow in order to harass the network until it forks them off. In other words, it's never going to happen.

>>14350308
Likewise, it took my bank account being frozen back in mid-2012 for me to realize the cash wasn't actually mine and that Bitcoin was, in retrospect it was a useful lesson learned from the experience.
Never looked back at keeping value in a bank account since then.

Here's the way I see it
> it's not scalable
Yeah not in a peer to peer sense. There will be different centralized BTC banks. Yeah. I know. But still you can choose whichever one you want. And the crazy crypto anarchists will still be able to stick their paper wallet under their mattress. So you get both paradigms

The big reason in my mind to stick with BTC is that there's not some massive reserve of it stored away in some jackass founders wallet. Yes there is satoshi's but I have a hunch it will never be used. And that being said it's still way smaller than most other currencies like fucking XRP

>>14350333
they can't really harass the network with what they have after a hard fork change to pow. it would crash btc price temporarily sub $1000 is very likely. long term there is no putting this genie back to the bottle.

>>14350654
also when a network is in danger of a 51% attack the usual thing that happens is everyone wants more confirmation. especially if known hashrate goes into hiding.

>>14345613
This is the correct thread.
BSV will be the true ethrum killer and also king of coinmarketcap 2019
Do you not think that the Craig Wright team has not been working hard? Guess what? It has.
And always remember, as Craig says:
Get in BSV
The real BTC!

Let us all celebrate now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwRZgtTEH08&t= [Embed]