/biz/ - Business & Finance

Does this account for the people who will just simply quit their jobs and stop paying taxes if UBI is implemented?

Octo mom can get $9000 per month without doing porn?

>>12908362
No, but it also doesn't take into account the people who will create value that they otherwise would not have because they used all their energy to wageslave.

what is this shit? Fuck communists cant wait for TRUMP 2020

>>12908390
If they are able to create more value than what they could by wageslaving, then why aren't they doing it in the first place?

what would the number be if we leave taxes alone and just kill welfare?

>>12908390
"Create value"
Does it get any more vague than that?
Sorry idiots, the USA is not electing a communist chink to be president.

>>12908285

Fuck off tranny

>>12908392

>>12908392
Can you read?

>>12908390
>being a cheeto scoffing gaymer
>adding value

pick one

>>12908285
What happens to USD vs other currencies when this is implemented?

>>12908399
No energy remaining after a dreadful wageslavery and long commute. It’s hard to believe I know. Buts it’s true.

>>12908390
Sounds like a great program to give to those who can qualify (education, iq). Horrible idea when applied to the masses, they are wageslaves for a reason.

>>12908285
check your math, there pard.

we spend 50% of federal budget on health benefits and social security, thats about 1.7 trillion dollars. we are already halfway there.

Here in finland gov tested ubi 2017-2018.
2000 Randomly selected people over 18 were given 560 euros (620$) every month for two years. The goal was to find out how does this affect well-being and unemployment rate.
It didnt come as a surprise that those people were less stressed, had more high hopes about the future. Also some increased number of business were started.
But surprise was that ubi did not affect unemployment rate at all.
Summary, free Money gives people more free time and options but does not affect unemployment rate at all.

>>12909086
https://www.kela.fi/web/en/basic-income-frequently-asked-questions?inheritRedirect=true#what-was-the-basic-income-experiment-about-and-what-issues-were-studied-

>>12909086
try giving it for life instead of a few months tho
not the fucking same

>>12908548
it goes to absolute shit
what happens to USD/BTC if this gets implemented

>>12909086

They did it in canada too same results. I think we have unoffical ubi in most euro countries. You can be on welfare for 10 years and they wont bat an eyelid or make you do some community service. I did a community thing for 3 days and I also got a mcwagie job on the side. I would never get the job on welfare because it is such a fucking hassle to inform them you worked so many hours and these days as they try to come up with how much benefit they should pay you. It's the bureaucracy with welfare that causes long term unemployment.

>>12909190
welfare is not ubi you nigger

>>12908285
it's not just the plain monetary aspect
the value of work would inflate very heavily with UBI why work 4hrs per day for $1000/mo if you get $1000 as baseline? the extra $1000 over the $1000 base probably won't even cover the costs of setting up your lifestyle to work instead of doing whatever you want

every basic service will end up costing much-much more, because people will only be willing to work for more, so the USD will inflate away by giving away 300,000,000,000 per month to everyone.

let's put it this way:

the overall circulating supply of a currency is 1,000 billion

there's 1 very rich man holding 995 billion of it. he only spends 1 million per year to cover his lavish lifestyle.
if you take that 995 billion and distribute it to people who actually spend it, it results of an insane inflation of the currency

>>12908285
If everyone has an extra $1000 won't that just make the price of goods go up and make the UBI actually meaningless?

>>12909086
>but does not affect unemployment rate at all

they gave it exclusively to people with no jobs. they didn't find jobs with higher % than those who received nothing

if they distributed it to 2000 randomly selected people who HAD really shit paying jobs, you can bet your ass it would have affected (increased) unemployment rate

>>12909315
not entirely because many really poor people don't use a lot of the services whose price would increase. but the middle class would end up paying a lot more through inflation of the cost of services they use (not the upper class, because service providers in those area generally earn high enough) than it seems from just the taxes

>>12909366
i mean if someone earns 70k a year, they're very unleikly to stop working because they still get 12k. but if someone earns 18k...

>>12909370
This is exactly how I feel about it.
Sadly, poor Americans are not particularly forward thinking.
If I had an extra 1000 per month to supplement my 36,000 per year, you bet your ass I would save every dollar in UBI payments.

>>12908390
>you actually share the board with people like these

Miltons vision of ubi is the only one that makes sense. It’s supposed to replace public spending on schools and hospitals not add to it. So everyone gets the money the government would spend on them every month directly leaving them free to use the private sector to pay for education and healthcare. The idea is that the government as middle man is an unnecessary inefficiency.

So you get a free pay check every month but there are less public services.

>>12908285
Yang mentions those that receive benefits would only get an amount that totals 1k afterwards, and those that get more than 1k don't get anything. According to the government, 68m people already get SSI, making the pop over 18 getting paid drop to 186m people.
Unemployment recipients is about 2m people, each getting between 250 and 700 per WEEK. 184m people now.
42m SNAP recipients would get 750 USD (at 250/mo from SNAP) in UBI, meaning 142m people get 1k/mo and 42m people get 750/mo (extra).

378Bn USD extra for SNAP recipients.
1.704T USD for the rest of the adult population.
2T USD total for this proposal, at a high ball, since this isn't including other benefits at the cost reduction associated.

This also doesn't include the increase population collecting SSI, reducing the total cost for this. (Although retirees will see a hit to their SSI in 2032, a 23% decrease [projected due to lack of funding] should still keep most above the 1k limit).

Also, Yang proposed immigration reform, since payout would be incentive for mass hordes. A 25% VAT would almost entirely cover the program, although that's not including economic growth spurred by additional spending and liquidity added to the economy.

Additionally, population growth allowed by increasing financial flexibility could theoretically avoid the problem SSI is facing with a decline in contributors compared to beneficiaries.

I'm not exactly for gommunism, but feeding wealth back into the system rather than allowing it to ferment would be ideal. The wealthy will still build wealth, but it will cycle through the bottom, looping capital around rather than having it stuck at the top.
I like the idea of also giving middle/lower class people who aren't retarded some capital, to get some skin in the game in terms of our society.
Even if it fails I'm not horribly concerned. It would push politics towards individual again, which is also pretty good.
Most importantly, I like how "Yang Gang" sounds.

Couldn't people, knowing other people are now $1000 richer, just raise the prices of everything, effectively making the extra $1000 a month useless?

>>12909531
The market isn't a unified organism. A dude or company can undercut people that spikes prices.

>>12908390
this is correct for the record.
the author of harry potter books wrote the first one while being a single mom on welfare.
now she's like the richest woman in the world, paid back in taxes what she received thousands of times

there would be more creative value created, but the truth is, if someone is really keen on getting something actually useful done that they could with a $12k/year additional income, they can almost always find a way to get that additonal income. maybe they need to lie and get on autismbucks or whatever but the lack of UBI basically means that if someone doesn't REALLY feel like they should become a leech, they won't (because it's hard)
and if they don't REALLY feel like they should, they probably shouldn't

>>12909011
Sorry granny no more chemo, but here’s your 20% reduced SS check!

>>12909658
>he thinks Rowling wrote harry potter
bet u think russians hacked the election

>>12908285
op how>>12908285
what about wat welfare already eats up?

>>12909699

Who wrote it then.

>guy named yang shills communism in america

>>12909086
now do it in a high nigger area

>>12908390
I'm curious where the origin of this statement is considering my obese friend, who's been unemployed for 13 years, has said pretty much the same thing verbatim while playing League of Legends every day

>>12909011
>we're already halfway there
Yes, we're already halfway there even though under half of the 18+ population is receiving any kind of benefits and the spending for existing recipients can only go up, not down

>>12909086
>randomly selected with a fully disclosed time limit
>$620
>Finland

Finland has an income tax of 51%, this experiment did nothing but give these isolated people the equivalent of a temporary tax break

https://tradingeconomics.com/finland/wages

It's completely inapplicable for a variety of reasons, mostly because the individuals in the experiment are just that, individuals amongst an otherwise normally functioning economy. As much as you can call the Nordic countries, which have individuals being taxed as if they're in a constant state of total
war, "normally functioning" anyway.

>>12909312
This was something I wanted to touch up on but the word limit is stifling, well put

>>12909626
Most of the companies under the most intense scrutiny these days have net profits in the low single digits. No one will "not" raise their prices when their cost of doing business has arbitrarily and universally increased in kind.

>>12909658
There are tens of millions of people on welfare across the world, using someone like that as an anecdote is pretty silly. I am an artist with big dreams myself, and no one would want the fantasy of UBI to be made real than I would, but it's just that: something that sounds good but will have profoundly negative consequences for a market that's never in the stasis some would like it to be in

>>12908399
Wageslaving drains your time, energy, and freedom.
Unfortunately, most people are so used to wageslaving that they wouldn't know how to pursue creative endeavors.

>>12908285
it wont work unless we go full on 14/88 and secure the border and deport the browns. the capitalists are using them as scabs now to show how socialism doesn't work. well no shit it doesn't work. how can it work with millions of illegal leeches pouring in every year?

>>12910169
>Most of the companies under the most intense scrutiny these days have net profits in the low single digits. No one will "not" raise their prices when their cost of doing business has arbitrarily and universally increased in kind.

Companies are still bound by competition and the biggest driving force of raising prices is if the cost of service/materials etc. For every business that tries to arbitrarily raise a price based on an event such as UBI, there are other businesses ready to steal their clients.

If anything, more spending power for consumers is going to mean more competition. You know why "millennials" keep "killing" businesses? Because they don't have any money to spend.

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>>12910334
This

>welfare state
>open borders

You know the rules

>>12910455
>the biggest driving force of raising prices is if the cost of service/materials etc.

Yes, so you can see why these already highly competitive (to the point many of them are netting $.02-$.05 on the gross dollar) companies-including the suppliers, distributors and contractors working on behalf of those companies-having to charge 10% VAT on all the goods and services they provide in addition to whatever sales tax may already apply would have consequences for prices of goods and services in general. These price hikes will be substantially higher than a flat 10% increase as anecdotes from overseas suggest, as well.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8237338/VAT-increase-shops-could-put-up-prices-five-to-eight-per-cent.html

>tl;dr: shops in the UK increase prices 5 to 8 percent in response to an additional 2.5% VAT

Consider how gasoline is the equivalent of $7+ in most European countries wherein a large VAT is applied and Tariffs are collected whereas it's well under $3 in the US where we have a flat tax of around $0.20 a gallon paid at the pump.

https://www.fuelseurope.eu/knowledge/refining-in-europe/economics-of-refining/fuel-price-breakdown/

>millenials killing businesses because they don't have any spending money

One main reason millenials don't have any spending money is because they were the first generation to make college attendance ubiquitous (70%+ vs 40%~) and they'd done so well after the time the federal grant and loan structure had predictably increased the price of college far beyond the inflation rate.

You'll notice these schools allow, encourage and even participate in leftist rabble rousing because they know that blaming a faceless "system" and greedy billionaires is a great way to distract from the real responsible parties who are directly tithing them for $300 or often more a month for what is ostensibly the rest of their lives in exchange for a two year degree.

>>12908285
also the free market would immediately raise prices in specific sectors to accommodate the increased capital flow-- it would not help people and would ultimately crush individualistic drive to achieve anything of value.
see the crisis of the 3rd century CE for a corollary.

Bump

He is going to win. Millions of people in America are living paycheck to paycheck right now, you think they would pass up on free money?

>>12913106
Let's hope they're not so short sighted as all that, but if that's what's coming in the near future post Trump then for fuck's sake let me accumulate first

>>12908390
>but it also doesn't take into account the people who will create value that they otherwise would not have because they used all their energy to wageslave
Yeah, I'd slap about $5000 dollars on top of OPs estimate to account for that.

Comfy feel knowing I will get to physically remove commies from the USA in my lifetime. God bless accelerationists.