/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>12830553
From the magic fountains of artificial wealth creation (printer)

>>12830553
redirected from conventional welfare and corporate taxes.

>>12830553

The money will come from replaced welfare schemes that churn 'n' burn, cost savings on overhead

Tax revenues on economic growth

>>12830637
It would have to be from existing programs only, since I don't see corporate taxes being increased. That total is about 700B. If you were to divide that by about 300M people, that would $2300 per year. (Is this math correct?) Looks like it's hardly worth it.

It will be taken from men and given to women, obviously

>>12830676
we will probably see a much more aggressive push for UBI once automation layoffs start becoming significant. it's going to be more politically viable to increase corporate taxes when manufacturing companies are making x times more money with x times less people.

>>12830714
I don't see that happening in the US, honestly. If anything, it's going the other way. The last GOP tax cut was pretty big and was almost exclusively corporate.

>>12830676
Or megacorps like Apple/Amazon will supply UBI somehow...

>>12830752
I did say it would be in response to automation layoffs. those tax cuts are under the reasoning that they keep jobs in the US. that race to the bottom can only work for so long.

>>12830553
frum visnu sir

>>12830821
based and brownpilled

>>12830815
True, but where's the breaking point? Will the US have to be on par with Mexico to get there? Will we live to see that day?

Honestly, the only way UBI can be implemented is if we go full-mustachian with the government. Pay off the debt and have enough of a surplus of revenue that the entire country can live off of it.

But that too is a pipe dream, any fund will be immediately raided by corrupt politicians.

>>12830864
Yeah, answer these questions anons before I believe in your universal meme money.

Robots.

Robots will work 24/7 and be more productive than humans for the same amount of time spent. Companies will produce much more, much faster, and much cheaper. Meanwhile, there will be growing unemployment concerns as humans won't be able to compete. To remediate the problem, robots will be taxed on the revenue they generate. Even after tax, companies will be generating much more money than before (again, robots are massively more productive than humans and cheaper) while the tax money collected from robots will be enough for UBI. Consumption will increase as people have more free time, further driving growth of these big companies, generating more money available for UBI, generating more growth for these companies, further generating more money for UBI, until a day where so much is being produced that everyone can just be given a truckload of money and there would still be some left, at which point money disappears, at which point we evolve to the next stage of civilization

>>12830553
If the current form of capitalism continues %99.9 of people eventually be below absolute poverty line but companies will still need to sell their shit to them. So, they'll give these taxes willingly so you can buy more useless shit.

Or, industry 4.0 will start the evolution of society towards communism. We'll be ruled by A.I as well as all other companies(eventually).

>>12830553

We already have one and its called the progressive tax system. The UBI model actually fails miserably in every scenario.

>>12830959
Go into this anon.

>>12830936
This is how I see it happening:

>Robots will work 24/7 and be more productive than humans for the same amount of time spent. Companies will produce much more, much faster, and much cheaper. Meanwhile, there will be growing unemployment concerns as humans won't be able to compete.

I can see all of this happening, and in fact it's already happening. But production will not be ever-increasing because as the number of employed humans shrink, demand slows and robots sit idle, waiting for the next order from Amazon to come in.

>To remediate the problem, robots will be taxed on the revenue they generate.

That will never fly. "More taxes on job creators?", they'd bellow, "Are you crazy? employment is already at an all-time low! We need jobs" Tax pushback like this is already happening.

>Even after tax, companies will be generating much more money than before (again, robots are massively more productive than humans and cheaper)

No, the robots will be sitting idle since demand has shrunk.

>while the tax money collected from robots will be enough for UBI.

It may be enough to fund some UBI, but that'll be kept by the companies. In response to shrinking demand, they'll go after increasingly-targeted markets, like anyone making over a certain amount. This is another extrapolation and is actually already happening with technologies like facebook. The poor or otherwise undesirable consumers will simply not be advertised to for some products.

>Consumption will increase as people have more free time,

Time does not drive consumption, only income (and possibly debt) does. So, just to stay afloat, people will be more indebted. (This is already happening, I'm just extrapolating)

>>12830864
the political breaking point? hell if I know. maybe automation won't be all it's cracked up to be, or a magical new job sector will open up. but if automation does eat in to a large portion of the work for people aren't going to take it lying down.
NY just paid something like 3B in tax cuts for Amazon HQ2. which is essentially a roundabout way of the government paying for people to live. UBI isn't too different when you take out the extra steps.
and government corruption doesn't work that way; politicians can't just dip their hands into allocated funds. the fewer steps the money has to make the harder it is for corruption to get to it.

>>12831066
aren't you saying both that automation will remove jobs but also that companies wont get taxed more because they're seen as job creators?
the idea is that these companies will lose their status as job creators once they rely more heavily on automation.

>>12830553
your mother mouth.

>>12831196
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. They'll say "I'm a job creator" while in the same breath, they'll be laying off people and replacing them with machines. And people will go with it because this type of hypocrisy has been successful since the 60's or earlier, it's all "spin".

There are countless old chestnuts that can serve as an example for this double-think. Here's a good one:

>"Make abortions illegal!" and "I don't want my tax money going toward public childcare!"

But really, this is mostly for the US. Most voters are incredibly naive here and fall for the oldest tricks in the book. I doubt it'll change.

>>12831261
sure, but that's more about the politics than the viability of UBI itself. you could have said any political change in history wasn't likely to happen because of political momentum.

>>12831321
I guess that's true. Honestly, no one really knows what will happen to be sure. Hell, I hope it works out, don't get me wrong. But I'd be satisfied with even just a good old time-tested public healthcare program at this point. Seems like we're incapable of even doing that because of too much vested interest.

>>12830553
The same place all money comes from: literally nowhere. And if UBI is passed at the same time as cancelling a bunch of welfare programs that will no longer be necessary, it won’t even have an inflation cost.

>>12831362
oh yeah, it's definitely going to happen in a more socialized country before the US, if at all.
and I was thinking that the idea of public health care in the US was starting to gain steam. who knows, maybe the next financial crash or US president might be a tipping point for it.

>>12831066
False. There will still be jobs even with automation. It'll be about influencers and entertainers. Coorporations, the wealthy will be good looking, charismatic, or talented people who are able to sell their coorporation's product. The poor will be the unnatractive who can't get anyone to buy their shit. We are living at the early stages of this world. People become rich quickly nowadays if they are attractive or good entertainers.

>we have people right now who were born well after the banker/teller genocide caused by the introduction of the Automated Teller Machine in the early 70s and the Convenience Store holocaust caused by food and drink vending machines talking about how there won't be any jobs in the future because similar machines are entering other economic spaces

The idea of automation completely replacing human labor is a meme created by the GLOBALISTS to justify exporting human labor in mass to countries like China and Mexico with weaker currencies and wage protections. We already have a "Universal Basic Income", it's basically what welfare and unemployment are: money for people who're too old, temporarily down on their luck, or too physically lame/mentally incompetent to find work. The word you should be looking for is "hyperinflation" because that's what a real UBI will get you. It speaks volumes that the only places they've experimented with it are individual regions in countries where they can safely dip into pocket of the rest of the nation to fund it, and to that end they haven't "really" experimented with it at all.

Don't get excited, both your free money and that which you'd saved would quickly cease to be worth the paper it's printed on were such an arrangement passed.

>he thinks he can give Shaquila O'Neala and her 14 kids $2,000 a month each without incident

wew

>>12831466
Sure, there will still be some people with a vocation, but we can't be a population of only influencers. 99% of folks will fall to the bottom.

>>12831664
Kek

increased circulation and a cost price index of basic goods is about the only way it can happen. You know, all that good stuff that always totally works and never goes wrong.

Theres no reason to keep unproductive people alive.
Tax automated businesses more so the increasing numbers of unemployed people get a handout to buy things?
Eventually almost everyone will just be transferring digital numbers in the banks spreadsheets for real commodity goods.
The owners of the automated system will just be continuously supplying real goods for a fiat currency backed by the own goods theyre supplying.
Once the military is sufficiently automated, the unnecessary second step (you) will be removed.

>>12832139
Wow, who hurt you?

Government can just print money without issuing bonds (i.e. no new debt). It's inflationary, but we'll have no choice if the automation fags are correct and the jobs all disappear.