/biz/ - Business & Finance

Id confirms.

it's either the demise or the bottom

>>12619384
You sound like a bagholder from Jan 2018. This shit takes time, the roman empire took generations to wind down.

>>12619400
>http://fortune.com/2019/01/16/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-house-financial-services-committee/
a 29 year old inexperienced commie thot in charge of your banks
give it 10 years bro

>>12619376
>Venezueala

this mad woman the future president of npc crowd will cause the downfall of usa in 25 years

>>12619466
>mixing cause and effect so badly
They want her because the US is dying and they try ever more radical approaches to save it, even if they are stupid and ultimately pointless.

>>12619376
Her popularity is overrated.. and in a country with +300 million people, it would be outright suspicious if there wasn't a couple of quasi-communists.
It hardly signify the end of America that a small minority has some strange political ideas..

>>12619426
well btc is going to 1 million usd no worries

socialism quite literally can never work, because the people that want it, hold none of the power. a bunch of worthless poors aren't going to be able to get their way, when it would require those with money, power, and freedom to concede all of them willingly.

automation only makes the poor even less useful.

>>12619530
Her popularity can be considered the result of her being 'click-bait' incarnate. the ultimate incarnation of what the typical Roastie think she is, incredibly talented, but suppressed - regardless of having no practical, relevnat life experiences. they also form the demographic with grossly disproportionate influence on society.

>>12619376
compares to
>venezuela
>soviet union
not
>northern and western europe, which her policies are actually in line with, or her tax policies are in line with usa during the 60s-80s

are americans intentionally dishonest or just retarded?

>>12619553
Put Ancaps on that list. They also require insane concessions from everyone and that the system be allowed to exist.

She makes promises that would, on the surface, help very many USA citizens. They don't think about the long term consequences or if the promises are even possible. It's always the same. If the economic conditions are bad for the average people, then such rhetoric works. Doesn't matter if it's left or right wing. If the people wouldn't worry about finding work or having enough income to live well, then she, or also trump, wouldn't stand a chance.

>>12619553
the "socialism" she is referring to is not that of past or present communist dictatorships.

more in line with modern western and northern europe

>>12619376
When was it ever an Empire?

>>12619530
USA is kill alrdy, kikes destroyed it. What remain is just an abomination full of NPCs, niggers and shitskins.

>>12619576
cont. Also remarkable that everyone tries to make it a black or with decision. It's either full on socialism or unrestricted capitalism. However, in reality, there is a spectrum. You don't life in a socialist country if taxes are increased slightly or if you have public health care.

Is it just me, or are the only successful 'capitalist' societies the ones that can externalize the cost of abusive policies to the worse off in society and later on kill them off/immobilize them somehow?

If the second half can't be done, people like Cortez will pop out and halt the party.

>>12619580
America is an empire. Global military and fiscal control.

>>12619580
>>12619636
british empire, and don't you forget it

>>12619598
>You don't life in a socialist country if taxes are increased slightly or if you have public health care.
american conservatives do not understand this concept. they think if you have thinks like free tuition and healthcare you are the soviet union. they also believe that when someone refers to these things as "free" they are speaking literally and not referring to point of service, as if we are unaware of the existence of taxes.

>>12619649
yep, american strategy is similar in some respects. most powerful navy by far protecting global trade routes to secure free trade.

>>12619568
>are americans intentionally dishonest or just retarded?
dora.jpeg
Why not both?

>>12619376
>Where were you when you witnessed the demise of the American empire?
I wasn't even born yet!
Didn't the demise start in 1812?
When the British invaded to get rid of the original 13th amendment that was ratified. The amendment forbid titles of nobility, aka no esquires i.e no solicitors/lawyers.
BAR = British Accredited Regency

>>12619568
Absolutely this, thread is over boyos. Fucking chimp iq and bait posters

I am deeply ashamed and embarrassed I used to be a lolbertarian.

She's not wrong or lying. The problem is you dumb goyim think she's talking about you and not just her and her tribe.

>>12619568
>northern and western europe
Pretty hard to do that when you have an exponentially growing non-white government dependence class.
BRAZIL STYLE SOCIALISM HERE WE COME!
Hope you like random acts of cannibalism, bro.

>>12619530
>Her popularity is overrated
According to a 2017 YouGov poll, 44% of American millennials would prefer to live in a socialist country, 42% in a capitalist country, 7% in a communist and 7% in a fascist country.

It seems to me that a whole lot of Democrats see AOC as "their Trump" who will upset recieved political wisdom with a new and radical platform.

>>12619568
It’s almost like it only works when the population is white and motivated and anyone suggesting this in America is a fuckibg retard because it doesn’t take the demographics into account.

>>12619981
how is she radical?
I just looked at her platform and it's in line with Germany's centre-left party for example...

Fuck off back to /pol/

>>12619568
It only works here because we are white. Give it a few more years of uncontrolled immigration and Europe will turn to shit.

>>12619859
>>12620011
whatever, it's inevitable that the US will collapse anyway. it might last another century.

>>12619376
In sweden and it's killing my soul from the inside. A lot vote to the left as you may know, but 8% of the population voted for a literally communist party that in their manifest writes that they want to abolish ownership.
Sweden is NOT a socialist state (yet), we in fact have had a very healthy market economy that has paid for everything through taxation. But now moving ever so slightly to increased regulation and government. It kills me every time people around me say they like socialism (and I mean most of my friends) even tho they have no clue what it means or what is happening. They do not understand that socialism is "inequality = unjust exploitation", which obviously is retarded.

>>12619376
>he fell for the capitalist ideology meme
the problems with the Soviet, China, Cambodia, and Venzuela have nothing to do with Socialist financial policies. It has to do with the level of corruption in the government. If American education wasn't such shit, you'd know this.

If you were just a tiny bit smarter and at least spent a little time on wikipedia, you might see that America actually resembles the final days of the Soviet.
>Rampant inequality between party members at citizens
>Internal political corruption, selling of public goods, backdoor deals
>Endless war in the middle east
>Fragmenting control over states and rural areas
>Ethnic tensions

>>12619376

>>12620069
>WASN'T REAL COMMUNISM

>>12620064
Some inequality is the product of the modern philosophical concept of justice that states that the value of performance should reflct reward/punishment. (As described by e.g. Erik Ahlman). By the moral value void mechanics of market economy (contra planned economy n.b.) a great accumulation of wealth disrupts the expectation of equality in the same notion of justice. That is that the same perforance, (and I'd crucially add to some degree, effort), made by different people should be repaid by the same reward.

>politicians manage things well and we should give them more money and more control over important things
Yeah, how about no?

>>12620143
and I can say american isn't living under real capitalism too.
If you had made it in to highschool and took even the most basic logic and debate class, you'd know that searching for one true scotsman gets you no where.
If you'd like to bring anything valuable to the conversation instead of rolling around in your own shit, please be my guest.
If you can't manage this, you're just the proving that American Capitalism doesn't provide it's citizens even the most baseline means to have free thought and discussion. You've built yourself a cage so well constructed, you can no longer tell it's there.

>>12619568
put a hundred million spics and niggers in their country and tell me how it goes

>>12620201
Shut up nerd.

>>12620222
Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to present to you, The Americans.

Any society in which normal people are allowed basic property rights will quickly be something that idiots will refer to as "capitalism" because human beings are unequal in their propensities to save, to invest, and to produce. Anyone who seriously brings up the topic of capitalism, as if there were any alternative other than complete totalitarian hell, can be immediately dismissed as a time waster with nothing meaningful to say.

>>12619376

Implying capitalism is any better for the poor? I'm not even a hardcore communist/socialist but these arguments are just funny lol.

>>12619426
She is on a committee where neoliberal economics and monetary policy are still the consensus.

She has to figure out what she is going to champion.
Even career congress members boil their political goals down into one or two planks, then watch as their brainchild is picked apart by committee after committee.

>>12619376

I’m going to vote for her if she runs

does that trigger you snowflake?

>>12620238
This shit applies to every single country in the world

>>12620195
>have rule of law
>but don't give legislators too much power


>give politicians less money
>competent people don't consider it a viable career
>monetary lobbying and bribes now more appealing

>>12620238
>posts 500 word non sequitur communist essays on an anime business board
The absolute state s o y sexuals...

>>12620280
It doesn't matter how well you pay because ultimately the people who seek out those positions do it for power and influence. Very few do it because they actually want to change things for the better. Paying people who are doing it for power and influence better won't stop them from taking bribes. There are politicians with hundreds of millions and still fucking over the country for lobbyists and working against the interest of the country.

The only real solution to politicians acting the way they do is holding them to a higher standard and executing them when they act against the interest of the people or do not carry out their will. The problem is that getting politicians to actually vote for such things is impossible because they aren't going to vote for something that would eventually kill them.

>>12620275
>mfw Americans who've never left their country believe every other country has it just as bad as them, except worse.
I D E O L O G Y
I N T E N S I F I E S

>>12620238
Oh no, how am I going to stop Coca Cola from oppressing me? Oh..wait. I just don't buy their products. Wow.

>>12620280
>competent people don't consider it a viable career
>monetary lobbying and bribes now more appealing
Yeah, it's not supposed to be a career. It's supposed to be a public service performed by responsible people who actually care about their country who serve one or two terms and move on, not some dumbass stooge who occupies the same seat for 30 years passing whatever the Koch brothers or Soros or the Israelis tell him to pass.

>>12620304
I'm not sure if you noticed this but the West as a whole is dying.

>>12620161
>performance should reflct reward/punishment.
As it would in a free market. Regardless of people thinking it fair or not.
>By the moral value void mechanics of market economy (contra planned economy n.b.) a great accumulation of wealth disrupts the expectation of equality in the same notion of justice.
This seems mostly an assumption that doesn't really make sense. If you were to accumulate wealth the best way to keep it growing is through investment, which would elevate even more people. Fact is we are not all of the same capacity and I believe that is the majority our perceived inequality. But I think that could be solved with less government (cheaper) and much lower taxes, one worthy example would be Friedmans negative income tax.
Let me add that I don't think going free market solves all issues in society but I do think it's the best idea. I'd rather think of these as worse ideas and better ideas. All ideas, just as people, are not equal, we are of different means.
>That is that the same perforance, (and I'd crucially add to some degree, effort), made by different people should be repaid by the same reward.
And again I think this is already true in a general sense and would be even more so if we moved closer to a free market.
But you have to take into account that it is not effort alone that should dictate value, it is also the ideas you pursue and of what value they are to the markets you aim for etc.

>>12620326
>doubles down on his belief that the problem isn't just him, but everyone else.
Soviet farmers were told from the politburo that life was harder on the other side too, buddy.
It'd be nice if you could ever get out of your 2nd world shithole and come visit a civilized country, but you can't and you won't.
Stoop kid never leaves his stoop.

>>12620365
Shut up nerd

>>12620365
Seriously you have to be blind to not see the entire western world is burning. If you don't think that then you are doing EXACTLY what you are describing and ascribing to Americans.

Its hard to comprehend how thick you would have to be to not see the irony in what you are saying.

>>12620384

paranoia, the post

Put your tinfoil on sir.

>>12620403
Oh so this is just a gaslighting and astroturfing thread. Makes sense I guess.

>>12620383
pic related

>>12620384
I don't disagree that there's a lot of turmoil right now. But you've got to be blind not to see that the epicenter of it is the US.
Please tell me, how is life behind the Iron Curtain, oh excuse me, I mean the Steel Slat Curtain?

>>12620069
>the problems with the Soviet, China, Cambodia, and Venzuela have nothing to do with Socialist financial policies
You can't be serious. What about the "you can't own a business part"? You know, an incentive to build something, to create wealth, that had no impact?

>>12620352
>growing is through investment, which would elevate even more people
I, Felix Cicero, bought another batch of slaves for my mega plantation today, surely the plebs won't get that populist Cesar elected just because they're unemployd and I'm hoarding all the land. This is fair and I won't get btfo.
What I'm saying is that the further accumulation of wealth is not necessarily benefitting society as a whole.

>not effort alone
I agree. It is however part of the general collective concept of justice that effort matters. Moreso than the rewards reaped by effort.

I'd boil down several disagreements I have about peoples opinions in this thread to my relative pessimism. I don't think people act good without real restrictions and incentives born out of ideals.

>>12620430
pic non related, pu it there for the guy who wanted to kill legislators

I'm not even going to read all that mental diarrhea ITT, I'm just gonna say most of you are complete fucking degenerate retards and true brainlets who can't even imagine a better society, let alone try to find a better solution than the current mainstream economic system.

you're all just "oh gee socialism bad, capitalism good" when in reality, there's always good and bad sides in either on those. but you're too stupid to understand that, it's enough that someone just mentions word "socialism" and you go nuts instantly. at this point you're hard to distinguish from monkeys in cage, they would do pretty much the same if someone put them in front of a screen. it's almost impossible to find a thread with meaningful and progressive conversation anymore, it's all just "gas jews gas kikes gas commies muh Trump" bullshit like that's somehow gonna solve complex problems and make the world less pathetic.

so yeah, fuck you, you bunch of braindead pieces of shits, you deserve to live in a cave, far from civilized world and this thread.

>>12620429
Baha, let me guess, did you learn that at your state sponsored school? Or better yet, at your underfunded state school that now has corporate sponsorships from the military industry?
And they presented the ability to start a business as the purest god given natural right? They told you that what provides the most stability to a society wasn't the level of corruption in the leadership, or the availability of cheap energy, or cultural cohesion, but the ability to sell vegetables on the side of the road?
I mean that sounds great, but you haven't set the bar very high for yourselves.

>>12620304
I thank God that the (((baby Boomers))) will all be dead soon. The irony is massive government cold war spending is what handed the fuckers everything.

>>12620423
I don't give a shit about Russia and your Communist agenda. The fact that the EU is imploding and Western civilization is being overrun and undermined is a much bigger issue than you being a faggot and trying to shill communism.

>>12620464
And you can just fuck off with your pretension to being above it all and looking for an honest conversation when you refuse to acknowledge the other side because you don't like what they are saying. You are the problem you describe faggot because you are doing exactly what you claim they do to socialism to their points you dumb hypocritical lack of self-reflection faggot.

>>12620464
t. You!
>>12620501
t. No you! (is right though)

>>12620501
>Yet again, just assumes its just worse everywhere else than he is
>Thinks the EU is imploding, even when it hasn't backed down from it's deal with the capitalist Brexitania
>Can't fathom that anyone who's Anti-capitalist isn't necessarily communist
>Willfully ignorant of my critiques of the Soviet presented right here

>>12620478
Complete gibberish. Congratulations.
Let me guess, you are new here and think it's all about being edgy?

>>12619981
and the older those millenials become, the more of them will turn into capitalist due to aquiring wealth.

I discuss politics with friends often and we're of wildly different opinions most of the time. The effort not to attack or insult the person you're arguing with mutually since you're friends makes the discussion much more effective as the subject matter is in focus and not as here, how retarded the counterpart is.

>>12620532
Again you aren't arguing honestly or are so far into your delusions that you think you are. There is nothing to be gained by engaging with you because again you are either arguing in bad faith or through delusion and the constant attacks on America and 56% memes make me lean towards bad faith.

So I'm done with engaging with you and just know that you are what contributes to the problem more than anything else. I'm just going to hope you are just a kike trying to sow discord between Europeans and Americans and not some dumb European who just hates America with a passion. The former is to be expected but the latter is just sad.

If you are just a deluded and angry individual I hope you eventually realize that all you are doing is making the situation worse.

>>12620539
>The American can't understand English
fuck, I might as well be teaching a dog how to drive.
It's not just a semiotic gap, but a complete inability

>>12620575
>how retarded the counterpart is
which they aren't
that's pretty important
you'll score the same in the IQ test
you just don't share perceptions

>>12619376
socialism =/= communism, I live in Canada and even though we have some socialist aspects to our society, we're still ranked either the #1 or #2 best place in the world to live

>>12620575
I agree, anon, and our little exchange was a breath of fresh air!

>>12620575
>can't handle the bants

>>12619481
gold standard, bank nationalization, and a NEW DEAL for next generation nuclear, auto, and renewable tech would save this country - none of which will happen under socialist globalist crypto-jews

>>12620316
This

>>12620573
>imagine thinking Boomers won't reverse mortgage every scrap of capital until there is literally nothing left

millennials will never acquire wealth.

>>12620312
You subsidize them anyway. Same as the NFL or NBA whether you watch their sportsball or not. (((Capitaism))) is all about externalizing expenses onto the public yet keeping the profits private.

>>12619376
israel loves you pay pig capitalists. keep paying those taxes goy.

>>12620423
You think like an intersectional drone. White girls aren't going to want to fuck you because you talk like a fag about how great Jewish Bolshevism is. Sip a cyanide latte, numale.

>>12620582
Again, you aren't anywhere near the topic, you won't trigger me with such low tier drivel. Also stated earlier; I'm from Sweden.

You could just rewind and tell me why the policy of abolishing ownership had no effect on any of the issues in socialist states such as soviet.
>>12620429
But your pseudo intellectual blanket statements are maybe not so easy to defend are they? Lashing out are we?

>>12620649
I know... this sissy makes 10 personal attacks, appeals to authority, and his entire line of reasoning is based on presuppositions, but he's screaming for everyone else to engage him with formal rhetoric in a gentlemanly debate. He's a queer from off site.

Socialism is sometimes pitted against market economy. I'd put forward that Socialism shares a polar relation to Hierarchism and that Market economy shares a polar relation to planned economy. I think we're observed hierarchism in a plan economy at leat within the Soviet political system. I also hold that most western countries tax policies is an example of market economy socialism, which has been pointed out earlier in this thread.

>>12619376
How come no one ever exposes Capitalism to the same scrutiny?

>>12619577
>modern western and norther europe
they arent socialist though? are you just saying she wants a few things deprivatised and leave everything else to unions and the market?

>>12620627
damn. sick burn.
I haven't heard a canned response about virginity like that since high school.

>>12620649
I really can't get into the details of it with you if you're going to refuse doing even the smallest amount of effort to understand it, but if your argument hinges on the ability to own private property, please check out China. Their limits and discouragements to private property hasn't slowed them down. Meanwhile, their governments ability to install markets and commodification have done wonders for their people. And that's 1 Billion people.
Conservatives in the west secretly know that their system could never provide a decent quality of life to that many people, that's why their clutching their pearls and reverting to nationalism.

>>12620725
I'd like your thoughts on this >>12620685
m8.

>>12620724
did you know Ireland and India were net food exporters during those famines? As was China under Mao and Ukraine under Stalin?

All four had a common theme; there was profits to made by selling the food to exporters.

Capitalism FTW!

>>12620724
socialism wouldnt have prevented the potato famine. the others involve shitskins dying so by default thats fine by me.

>>12620748
>socialism wouldnt have prevented the potato famine.
Ireland had food to feed its population twice over, and during previous famines they had closed their ports to keep the food local, which helped to ameliorate the famine. During this one, they were forced by the British government to keep their ports open in order to preserve a free market. As this anon >>12620747 points out, Ireland exported its food during the famine to satisfy the market. If the market were more stringently controlled, such as under a socialist system, the famine could have been lessened or avoided altogether.

>>12620728
>look at this dood
Are you even implying China isn't a mostly cap mixed market? You must be, because that data set lacks all context otherwise. You're lost in the woods, son. Get your pin head unstuck from your size 14 asshole.

>>12620771
i didnt know that
>>12620746
no

>>12620825
How can we hope to understand one another if we don't discuss the meaning of the words we use?

>>12619376
That picture is false because the system has always been capitalism and it always depends on the leaders of the socialist country. A real socialist country will always be better than a capatalist country

>>12620857
i dont understand economics, im just here for the coinz

>>12620304
No idiot, corporations run just about every country out there unless it is some shithole dictatorship. Central banks also fall under the corporation category.

>>12620728
My argument was that you are incorrect in saying it had NOTHING to do with socialist financial policy. Also in china you can in fact own a business. They have markets which create wealth. But still, the gpd per capita is greater in countries where economic freedom is greater. Of course there are exceptions to the rule. But generally speaking even in that area, macau, hong kong, s. korea, japan etc. are all doing better than china, per capita. So just pointing that china has improved is not an argument for it not being hindered by "limits and discouragements to private property". The average korean is doing better than the average chinese.

IF i surround your house with tanks and embargos, and dont let you go in of out, eventually your food will run a out and the system in your house will a collapse. IF i turn around and say to the world that your system doesnt work then id be the king of hypocrites. This is what you capitalist usa fucks do over and over again to other countries. Fuck off you worthless neet piece of garbage, who kisses the feet of capitalist jews and bankers while taking their cock Up the ass. Keep blaming it on minorities, you blind gullible, laughably right-wing, waste of space.

>>12619580
Colonized the Philippines in 19th Century and relinquishing it after WW2. US also influences countries’ domestic politics beyond its borders. I’d say the French are better at modern Neo-colonialism though, etc., Francafrique, West Africa.

>>12620981
>You seem mad
Enjoy Gargling shit

Communists need to die. That is all.

>>12620981
Pff, who surrounded Soviet and China with tanks and didn't let them leave their countries?
Soviet wanted to beat the western powers in an arms race and got fucked up.
China (Mao) and his "great leap forward" where he wanted China to become a superpower and being able to compete with the western powers failed miserably.

What does this tell you? One system is better then the other, right? Right.
Not to mention that you're obviously using Venezuela as an example in your shitty post, but you do realize that they are actively doing trade deals with nations including China..? Go back to actually believing a guy like Maduro is "muh socialist saviour", the same guy that eats extremely expensive dinners with other rich goyims, while his population runs out of food and the secret police goes around shutting down everything that could possibly criticize the dear leader so foreign incel morons like you can actually fall for their propaganda online.

>>12621051
>he doesn't know the capitalist nations ended ww1 to invade the soviet union and got btfo

>wealth gap highest it's been since the twenties, let's reduce it
>HURR DURR FAMINE