/biz/ - Business & Finance

Money gets its value due to people wanting it. They want it because they know they can exchange it for things they want. The person they pay with the money accepts it as payment because of the same reasons.

>>12385648
Energy and Time. Human energy, Intellectual energy/effort. Things become a store of value because of the intellect, time and effort that got put into them. Even if the "dollar" fails we still have lots of "things"

>>12385682
What if I spent 1000 hours training a turtle to respond to his name? Can’t believe people are still advocating for the objective theory of value after the past century

>>12385648
ponzi

>>12385648

pussy

money is debt
debt is the promise of the future energy and resources

that is all

>>12385648
All money is backed by confidence. The confidence can be for various reasons.

>>12385782

so bitcoin is useless?

>>12385797
because money is debt instrument it is completely inevitable that it will be inflated away. Also money will be confiscated.

BTC cannot be inflated.
BTC cannot be confiscated.
BTC is backed by energy and resources in the now.

But there is a problem, you spent one saotshi somewhere and now I know how many BTC you have. So now I will cut you until you give them all.

Crypto has to be private to be usable. BTC is just a uni of account. Privacy coins are money.

>>12385818
>BTC is backed by energy and resources in the now.
>t. retard

>>12385842
https://www.blockchain.com/en/charts/hash-rate

>>12385648
Productivity, work harder drones

>>12385856
since when is the value of something determined by its maintenance costs?

>>12385864
since we had cattle and slaves and machines and ragie wagies

>>12385842
Again, a nice name calling on this fine forum.

>>12385869
wrong, it's simply not. the value of something is determined by the future value it provides.
just cause btc consumes tons of electricity and computing power doesn't mean it's worth anything. that's retarded logic.
I could build a machine that consumes 20 gallons of fuel a minute and doesn't do shit. by your logic it must be worth a lot since it costs so much to maintain.
>>12385876
Get used to it or fuck off, you cocksucker.

>>12385883
BTC can be maintained by one miner at the cost of a condom

Why do you mine. You mine to get BTC.
It is auditable fact that more and more hash is competing for less and less BTC even in the biggest crash ever. Meaning real world absolute demand is going up brainlet while supply is going down.

Total crypto adoption is under half a percent.

Stay poor.

>>12385648
int's entirely based on the leverage the juden hold over the goyim.

>>12385897
>high adoption means high value (e.g. toilet paper)
You're fucking retarded. If you actually think there's any logic behind the price of btc it won't be difficult for you to come up with a rough fair market value, calculations included.

>>12385928
BTC and BCH have the same hashing algorithm
BTC and BCH price is exactly proportional to their respective hash rates

there, now you have a reliable way to calculate price on real world energy and resource

you can do that for every single coin that is mineble

you can also do that for gold and silver and copper

>>12385938
You didn't give me a price.

>>12385944
you do the math
take the cost of the most efficient miner
take the cost of electricity (haaa here we have a problem)

average the cost of the miner for the next 3 years + the cost of running it + 20% profit

you get 4200 usd

>>12385952
>take the cost of the most efficient miner
and what is that? is it independent from the price of btc?

>>12385952

this anon just figured out the true value

>>12385996
to hash you need a hashing machine
you can hash BTC with pen and paper too
mining requires:
machines
housing
electricity and connectivity
labor

all of the above are real world, unlike Proof of Stake

>>12385675
"Gold is money everything else is credit." - JP Morgan (testimony to congress 1912 before his death)

>>12386024
what is wrong with credit and debt ?
nothing, it is a tool

>>12385648
Its a claim on human labor
All value is

>>12385818
Are you fucked in the head? Money is not a debt instrument lolololol.

Gold and silver is real money.

The primary function of money is to MEASURE VALUE for goods exchanged for it. Money is a barometer to neasure value and nothing measures value like gold.

100 years ago a good weekly salary was 20$ and 20$ equaled 1 ounce of gold. Today that 20$ you earned 100 years ago doesn't even buy you lunch for two at Taco Bell. But that gold ounce that you earned 100 years ago is worth $1300 in fiat today which is still a good weekly salary. So your value was stored perfectly for 100 years.

Meanwhile that dollar measures value horribly over 100 years

>>12386032
What is wrong with it? We are 21 trillion in debt because we aren't on a gold standard anymore.

When on a gold standard the term "income inequality" didn't even exist. Today after being off a gold standard for 50 years "income inequality" is a top 3 issue.

And you don't think that has anything to do with the dollar not representing gold anymore?

>>12386046
gold is a commodity
gold is a chemical element

you can do the 100 year thing with land and you will get almost the same %

>>12386058
just vote communist in
put the interest rate at -2% (and make cash illegal)
and change your sex to something popular

this shit is soo easy

>>12386032
You know... money isn't supposed to just go up in value like bitcoin has. When the dollar started getting issued people didn't earn 5$ for a week and then think to myself if I just put this 5$ under my pillow for 7 years it'll buy 1,000x the shit than it does today for just HODLing that 5$.

Money is supposed to be stable. Real money is supposed to earn 100$ in 1960 and it being able to buy you the same amount of shit today for simply holding that 100$ .

>>12386059
Gold isn't supposed to give you a return retard. All you are doing when you buy gold is transferring your wealth from worthless paper to a real store of value. Because you fear the dollar will implode. A gold ounce just sits there it's savings. It's. It supposed to make you a return.

>>12386070
well it will take a while for you to wrap your head around it
crypto is a asset class backed by hashrate

volatility is sign of a very young market

>>12386090
Whatever. I'm not anti crypto but if you think it's better than gold your wrong

>>12386137
to me it is better because I can actually transact in it.
Gold is not divisible. Pay me 7.45 euro pleaaaase. Not happening.

That divisibility problem is why we had banks in the first place. Also I cannot verify on the fly that the metal is true. That is also a reason for having a bank. While in crypto you can be 100% sure you got paid, even with 0 confirmations.

>>12385648
Faith in the government

>>12386155
It's not about transacting with gold. Nobody really ever transacted in gold on a gold standard. The dollar REPRESENTED gold though. I understand that we aren't going to go back to paying for shit in gold bullion but the currency has to have a basis of value dude.

Gold is BOTH money and currency. But it is more importantly money.

>>12386234
you cannot have popper debt instrument if it is linked to the real world
that is why fiat will be ok, even if crypto takes over, because you cannot have proper toolbox of debt in crypto
the gold silver blond guy that talks about gold and currency money difference is wrong, we live in a debt world

>>12385648
Health of your countries economy.

>>12385648
Technically nothing. Oil production and US military power play an important role, though ("petrodollars").

>>12385648

>>12386024
That seems like a limited view of what money is. Gold may be a useful form of money but it's not the only valid type of money. It's not exactly so critical that the it remains constant over 100 years. It's in the general nature of a commodity to fluctuate in value over time, depending on how easy it is to produce, etc. Fiat currency is money too.

>>12385648

Taxes. The ability of the state to force payment of its periodic protection money demands in its own currency is the basis of all fiat. Every working adult and corporation files for taxes, and thus everyone has a demand for US Dollars.

force and nothing else. whoever can enforce their monetary unit wins. who can call in the debt of others? only those with the capability to defeat them in a war. and even then most weigh the pros and cons and instead use that leverage to get what they can (however short of the full amount) without having to go to war

>>12386058
I'm not an advocate of the FED and other central banks.

However, the problem with gold standard, is that when we will need liquidity on the market, we will use fractional gold reserve again, in order to have more liquidities in the market, thus diluting gold's value again.

>>12385648
Mindless rich people that can't stop to think about what money actually is. Also this people often feel guilt deep down so they avoid thinking about their money.

>>12385782
>(((Money is debt)))
Jfc you cant make this shit up

>>12386510
The ending, especially the part about loans, is misleading.
Yes, higher classes have physical wealth. No, that doesn't mean they are immune. This is especially true of larger financial institutions. Anyone who takes on debt, basically, suffers from a loss in liquidity. To finance consumption, they often take out LOANS on their PHYSICAL assets.
Consider the following scenario: money supply dries up, credit crunch constrains borrowers into calling in their debts. Debtors suffering from low liquidity have no way to raise the funds needed without a 'fire-sale'. This is where the central bank steps in and prints money, feeding lenders and other institutions, and pumping money (liquidity) into the economy.
Now you may very well say that the fat rich capitalist deserves it for being over-leveraged, and you may be somewhat right. However, consider that if you let Mr. Capitalist take the loss, then his 'chain'. i.e. everyone else he is connected with that he depends on and vice-versa will also suffer. In aggregate, this depresses the economy even further, leading to a drop in all key economic figures, or rather a drop in living standards for everyone.
>>12385648
In response to OP: money=fiat=PROMISE. The promise to deliver. Think of money as an abstract contract between parties. Also, in the case of hyperinflation printing money becomes the only reasonable route to keep the economy afloat until strict measures are put in place and a new currency is devised with proper backing that consumers have faith in. You can't simply cut off all the excess 0's... it doesn't work like that. In some cases, yes, you can 'write-down' bad debts, but in all but the most extraordinary of situations it causes more harm than good.

>>12385702
You can monetize your work and make a jewtube meme of pet obedient turtle and sell ebook called how to train turtle