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12072573 No.12072573 [Reply] [Original]

So I've been in crypto for a few years now and Tezos has particularly caught my attention.

I thought it could be interesting to share my views on why I think Tezos will be highly successful, while hightlighting a few weaknesses that may get in the way of that success. Could be a good way to share views and opinions.

So, you all know trade-offs are to be made when you design a blockchain protocol. You either prioritize scaling over decentralization or decentralization over scaling, at least on the blockchain layer.

Scaling has been a hot topic in the last few years, which led some projects to heavily focus on that, either Bitcoin with SegWit LN and other solutions in the making, Ethereum with sharding and plasma, or new blockchains protocols like EOS. Now, LN or plasma doesn't affect censorship resistance or security because they are layer 2 solutions, but for layer 1 scaling solutions the trade-off is huge because the protocol gets much more centralized and much less censorship resistant, making it a poor store of value.

That said, I think blockchains are a viable option for your product if and only if you need censorship resistance through decentralization. If not, then use another kind of database that's going to be much more efficient.

Which is why, from what i've learn, the number one thing blockchains are good at is:

Censorship resistant incentive models

In my opinion, this is the true value of blockchain tech. It doesn't get better than that. If you create a network of value that is designed to gain value overtime and put it out their in the wild, people are going to join in, because you can build better models that whats available in the traditionnal world, and everyone can have access to them with a simple internet connection.

>> No.12072578

>>12072573
On Bitcoin's value proposition

Let's be honest, as of today Bitcoin fails to be a mean of payment. Adoption is not good even tho you have a few merchants accepting it (who will in general convert it immidiately to fiat). LN might solve that, I don't know, but it doesn't matter so much. Why ? because Bitcoin's true value doesn't come from using it as a mean of payment, it comes from it's scarcity.

On the Store-of-value narative Bitcoin is strong as fuck. There's only going to be 21 million coins in existence, period. And it's going to live forever because it's uncensorable. Best scarce asset that I can think of. By the way 2020 is a pivotal point, with february halving we're gonna go from 4% inflation on Bitcoin to 2%, matching USD inflation rate. From 2020 and on, Bitcoin's inflation rate is never going to be more than fiat's inflation rate. That value proposition alone is a valid reason to buy and hold Bitcoin. This is what will make the price go up and bring liquidity and stability, and only then Bitcoin will be able to gain adoption as a mean of payment.

Back to Tezos.

>> No.12072587

>>12072578
On Tezos' incentive model

So far I fail to see any point of failure in Tezos' model in terms of incentives, I feel like everything has been covered:

Liquid proof-of-stake is super smooth to used. It's so easy, within 3 clicks you are part of the reward system (when I say 3 I mean 3, create delegation address, select delegate, send funds to that address). Today you make more than 10% annual return on your XTZs just by holding the thing on your Ledger Nano S. It's going to go down to 6-7% eventually but that value proposition is a no brainer. As long as your participate you don't get diluted by the system. So building a mining operation is basically replaced by 3 clicks. If security model works that's just a killer feature, allowing fair distribution of inflation.

Smart contracts are basically free if you hold XTZ because you are collecting the fees.

>> No.12072599

>>12072578
Now do NANO

>> No.12072609

>>12072587
Hold more than 1 roll ? Your incentive is to run your own node because you won't rely on a baking service and will get the full reward, which in turns help decentralization and thus increases censorship resistance.

You're trying to cheat the network ? Others have an incentive to point at you to get their hand on part of your security deposit.

Wanna be rich ? go and learn Ocaml, make proposition for protocol amendments, add your invoice. If your proposition is implemented no more money issues. - Parenthese, this is important, and this is one of the main reasons why I think censorship resistant networks of value will play an important role in the future. If you're well incentivized to build on them, tons of people around the world would rather do that then get whatever 9-5 job that's not going to get them out of poverty. There is a big misconception in my mind that is oftenly made, which is that we're gonna help the third world with blockchain tech. We're not gonna help them, they're gonna help themselves through it. And once they realise how well they can help themselves by building on global networks of value, the pace of innovation in the field will explode. They're hungry. -

We'll see how on-chain governance allows for easy modification of the protocole, but I like the fact that if a propostion is obviously good for the protocol it can be implemented rather easily. This also allows for great flexibility and evolutions on Tezos' incentive model and value proposition in the future.

>> No.12072621

>>12072599

On Tezos' security mindset

When you value store-of-value over transaction throughtput, you value security over anything else. This is why Bitcoin has 10 minute blocks and this is why Bitcoin's blocksize is -still- 1.8MB (with segwit).

For store-of-value and good incentive models the focus should be on security and not on throughtput. And I'm super glad Tezos is taking that direction.

To be honest, when you have a look at ethereum's traffic most of it comes from low value adding projects. Most interesting project on Ethereum just don't need high troughput, at least for now. So this gives Tezos time to focus and better out security before implementing solid layer 2 solutions.

Personnally, I don't feel the real value proposition of Tezos is on smart-contract feature but rather on the incentive model and store of value narative (inflation doesn't matter if all it takes not to get diluted is 3 clicks), and as such it doesn't matter to me that they chose programming languages that are a bit more difficult to learn for the average programmer as long as they give Tezos an advantage in term of security and robustness (Ocaml, Michelson) (back to incentives they will learn them anyway if they can make more money off of them).

That being said, it is awesome to think that Tezos has even more to offer through smart-contracts features, but this is just the cherry on the cake that will bring more people to the project in my mind.

>> No.12072660

Tl;Dr its a pyramid scheme scamcoin like everything else

>> No.12072711

>>12072573

highly agreed OP, dapps are a fucking meme; just like Arthur says, the vast majority of smart contract applications, weighted by value, are simple operations involving vesting and distribution, multiparty authorisation etc.

for these applications, security matters far more than computational throughput (for that there is always off-chain scaling, Counterfactual etc.), and Michelson is vastly more inherently secure than the EVM. 'import safemath' lmao.

>> No.12072765

>>12072660
>>think he's smarter than tim draper

>> No.12072794

>>12072765
> thinks Draper held his Tezzies Instead of selling the news

>> No.12072806

>>12072609
>Wanna be rich ? go and learn Ocaml, make proposition for protocol amendments, add your invoice. If your proposition is implemented no more money issues.
could you expand on this?

>> No.12072815

>>12072621
On the negatives

I think TF and DLS allocated too much XTZ to themselves. When we look back at the history of altcoins, the most successful alts were the one that had fair distribution. It started as early as 2011 with projects like Tenebrix who allocated a big amount of the supply to themselves, they died quick. People just don't like that, it's a turn off. I understand TF and DLS will use that money to better out the protocole, but 5% each would have been well enough and I think valuation would have been better off, which would have make their 5% stake more valuable in the long run. Also, they raised a significant amount of money and DLS will get 8.5% of that money. Even with 2% each they would have had tons of money to deal with and it would have been better for decentralization.

But well I also understand they wanted to keep some degree of control on amendment proposals.

I gotta say I would have liked to see a better distribution of wealth, but oh well it's not worst than other DLT projects.

As for KYC ermhh, I'm not sure what to think about it to be honest. I'm sure it was a tough decision and I'm confident there is a very good reason behing that choice. Maybe a good move for the long run, probably not for the short run, but who cares about short.

That said I am confident Tezos' value proposition is unique in the space today and will thrive in the long run.

Disclaimer: I own some XTZ ;)

>> No.12072835

When is the airdrop for Tezos? Is it based on EOS genesis block accounts? Or is it a different date?

>> No.12072855

the problem is tezos is just yet another failed platform, another project that isn't able to compete against ethereum for users or developers, and will languish until even the speculators move on.

>> No.12072899

>>12072815
>>12072815
Nicely argued shill post you got there.
How do you rate Tezos' development over the last year?
As >>12072855 said, the charts make it look like just another failed ETH alternative. I agree with you when you argue it's got a longer shelf-life and better incentive mechanisms than ETH, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence of devs actually migrating to it, and your premise that it will rely on Third Worlders wanting to escape poverty will propel its growth is optimistic at best.

>> No.12072912

Ethereum already won. Sell your tezos bags to some pajeet boomer and move on.

Tezos has both ZERO DEVS - HUGE MARKET CAP HANGOVER - HYPE DIED OVER A YEAR AGO

>> No.12072952

>>12072578
>On the Store-of-value narative Bitcoin is strong as fuck. There's only going to be 21 million coins in existence, period.
This is a nonsensical meme. It's going to self-destruct once bitcoin loses the first spot. In fact it already did, but cmc weird invention of 'circulating supply' prevented visibility of that.
Nobody actually needs bitcoin. Only tokens backed by something have lasting value.

>> No.12072963

>>12072660
this but unironically
10% decreasing to 6/7% inflation should make you run away in horror for a SoV, not clap
the tragic mistake late adopters make in trying to "buy btc/eth at $1" is a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes money money: social consensus
you need extraordinarily powerful memes to displace entrenched options. bitcoin is the libertarian revolution led by an anonymous developer in the aftermath of the crisis. ethereum is the open source world computer with developers all over the world joining hands and singing kumbaya. even eos somewhat successfully memed themselves as the entreprise solution, and third-world darling (hate dan all you want but building his own social media platform as leverage for his next projects was a genius idea)
we are still in delusion bubble mode, even if people can't see it. the different solutions offered from random shitcoins can have some value to companies, but in the 7 to low 8 figures worth, not 9. tokenomics tie emotional attachment to an opaque supply, which is why we don't see these valuations come back to earth; but they'll never materialize as a working product

>> No.12072990

>>12072855

Otherwise good assesment but nobody is using ethereum either. There isn't a single popular DAPP on that shit, the only one coming even remotely close to"popular" was crypto kitties and it almost broke eth.

>> No.12073061
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12073061

>>12072573
>dapps platform
>poor store of value
Kek

>> No.12073192

>>12072794
>thinks he knows how a VC invests
>>12072912
ETH will never scale bro

>> No.12073260
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12073260

>>12072573
>>12072578
>>12072587
>>12072609
>>12072621
>>12072815
thanks

>> No.12073749

>>12073260
Kek

>> No.12073764

>>12073192
>ETH will never scale bro
why? Seems to me like you fell for the "next eth" scam. Hundreds of projects claiming they'll be the next eth, ending up not doing shit and being a scam.

Ethereum is actively working on scaling. Other projects are just stealing Eth's ideas and then throwing Eth under the bus. They're just scams. Tezos is one of those btw.

It's a beautiful scam, it fooled the brainlets for hundreds of millions in 2017-18.

>> No.12073800 [DELETED] 

there is only one blockchain base layer project that can replace ethereum and whose most of ethereum 2.0's features are largely copied from, and even that, which is better than ethereum and will be better than ethereum 2.0 with no drawbacks, will not succeed is ethereum manages to implement shasper.

Want to know? It's not about slightly better tech. It doesn't matter. What matters is being good enough and having network effect. Ethereum has the latter in spades, and if it successfully upgrades next year, it will have the former too to be a good enough security layer for the 2nd layers that the world economy and world fintech will operate on for the next decade or more.

>> No.12073810

There is only one blockchain base layer project that can replace ethereum and from which most of ethereum 2.0's features are largely copied from, and even that, which is better than ethereum and will be better than ethereum 2.0 with no drawbacks, will not succeed if ethereum manages to implement shasper.

Want to know? It's not about slightly better tech. It doesn't matter. What matters is being good enough and having network effect. Ethereum has the latter in spades, and if it successfully upgrades next year, it will have the former too to be a good enough security layer for the 2nd layers that the world economy and world fintech will operate on for the next decade or more.

>> No.12073822

adoption is meaningless until the legacy structure fails

>> No.12073828

>>12073764
>next eth
Tezos doesn't want to be ETH, most of the people involved in development seem to be against the idea of useless dapps and their tokens. From what I can see in the whitepaper, It wants to be more like a PoS BTC with features added by the community not just core devs.

>>12073764
>Ethereum is actively working on scaling
Promised since 2016 and still waiting.

>>12073764
>scam
You can test it for yourself, sure looks legit to me. In theory the giant ICO was to disperse the coins out to as many people as possible, rather than have a whale buy 90% of the tokens which would result in a failed PoS model. I'm also not against the idea of giving a bunch of creative nerds heaps of money though the amounts raised by EOS was egregious.

>> No.12073831

>>12073764
Tezos is not trying to kill ethereum

It's trying to be Apple of blockchain

If you read the position paper and follow arthur

He only believe in 1 blockchain like csw not interoperability bullshit

Tezos was designed to be the last cryptocurrency

>> No.12073833

>>12073828
>Promised since 2016 and still waiting.
who else has solved scaling retard?

>> No.12073837

>>12072573
Tldr

Stop shilling tezos

>> No.12073840

>>12073764
If you look at https://tezosprojects.com you'll find zksnark in the protocol

As will it be augur and chainlink

And you think 200 million is not enough to baked this into the protocol?

>> No.12073845

>>12073833
Avalanche consensus has solved it.
https://bitsonline.com/igloo-edward-tate-avalanche-tezos/

>> No.12073849

>>12072990
I would like to add that cryptokitties is a scam. Money laundering/pajeet wash trading and nothing else.

>> No.12073852

>>12073840
>If you look at https://tezosprojects.com you'll find zksnark in the protocol
kek zksnark is just another idea tezos stole from ethereum. good work getting scammed brainlet.

>> No.12073857

>>12073845
>Avalanche consensus has solved it.
no it hasn't.

>> No.12073864

>>12073852
>kek zksnark is just another idea tezos stole from ethereum
Wrong again. Arthur got interested by it from Zooko

>> No.12073870

>>12073857
c o p e
o
p
e

>> No.12073872

>>12073864
>Wrong again. Arthur got interested by it from Zooko
sure believe what some scammer says retard

>> No.12073874

>>12073833
If you follow arthur he doesn't believe decentralization and censorship resistance is what made blockchain valuable

Scaling is secondary

>> No.12073877

>>12073872
Sorry if you bought ETH high. No need to troll Tezos though

>> No.12073878

>>12073870
seems like you're the one coping. whats your ROI on buying the eth ico vs the tezos ico? What's tezos adoption?

>> No.12073889

>>12073845
I don't know how it will turn out anon

>>Avalanche bakes into tezos protocol

>> No.12073892
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12073892

>>12073878
you actually comparing a project that launched four months to one that did three years ago?

>> No.12073893

>>12073852
That's the whole point, you baked the best ideas into the protocol

FAT PROTOCOL

>> No.12073900

>>12072573
I think blockchains power is to create new markets and economies. For example Augur. Though I know Augur isn't used that much, its still so very early and most people haven't adopted crypto in general let alone some obscure shit like Augur.

But I think within time it will gain some traction atleast from people that want to experiment with the possibilities.

Ofcourse not everything is going to get adoption but I think thats where some big money is made, protocols that enable new markets and economies. Such as for example decentraland (though the execution may not be perfect yet)

>> No.12073901
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12073901

>>12073852
This will make tz moon

>> No.12073918

>>12073900
“Towards Futarchy in Tezos” by Arthur Breitman https://link.medium.com/vuc6XSv8wS

>> No.12073942

>>12072573
>on shitcoin exchanges
>Devs hired scammer to run foundation
>forced kyc on people midway through ico, didnt allow refunds.
>devs are screeching sjw complaining about muh oppression
I'll pass for now.

>> No.12073962

>>12073942
The whole enterprise looks jewish. Pass

>> No.12074110
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12074110

>>12073852
>>stolen

>> No.12074431

>>12073852
Zksnarks are from zcash. They invented the multiparty protocol to generate the proving key trustlessly.

>> No.12074435
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12074435

>>12074431

>trustless trusted-setup

>> No.12074495

So I had a clown tell me yesterday that ETH requires Raiden in order for it to scale. Which is basically the lightning network...

That's some very sad shit to hear. That means ETH will never be able scale without some kind of shit fucking Rub Goldberg machine with a 10% failure rate for each transaction... Please god PLEASE tell me this was just some fucking moron who was desperate to shill me the lightning network because hes a fucking bag holder.

Either way, you guys are acting like Tezos already failed and you have no fucking clue. On top of that EOS is stomping ETH into oblivion right now in terms of growth and price and activity. ETh definitely has a couple good things going for it in its current state but if this shit requires lightning network then its fucking never going to happen.

>> No.12074585

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/09/future-ethereum-metropolis-serenity-raiden.html

> Raiden for faster Ethereum

> Raiden – Currently Ethereum can process a max of 15 transactions per second, Bitcoin can do about 7. Visa handles 40,000 transactions per second.

> Raiden is a technology that leverages off-chain state networks to extend Ethereum with some nice properties for asset transfers:

> Scalable: it scales linearly with the number of participants (1,000,000+ transfers per second possible)
> Fast: Transfers are confirmed and final within the fraction of a second
Confidential: Single transfers don’t show up in the global shared ledger
Interoperable: Works with any token that follows Ethereum’s standardized token API
> Low Fees: Transaction fees can be 7 orders of magnitude lower than on the blockchain
> Micro-payments: Low transaction fees allow to efficiently transfer tiny values

> Raiden Etherium Technology
> The technology enabling this is similar to the proposed Bitcoin Lightning Network.
> The basic idea is to switch from a model where all transactions hit the shared ledger on the blockchain (which is the bottleneck) to a model where users can privately exchange messages which sign the transfer of value.
> Raiden uses a network of p2p payment channels and deposits in Ethereum to preserve the guarantees expected from a blockchain system.
> Raiden is implemented as an extension to Ethereum. A Raiden node runs alongside an Ethereum node and communicates with other Raiden nodes to facilitate transfers and with the Ethereum blockchain to manage deposits. It offers a simple API which makes it easy to use Raiden in DApps.

Alright people, going off of this I am going to say it. ETH is better off right now not bothering with scaling at this point. ETH holds more value to me right now as it is right now for specific use cases than it would if Raiden was completed. Raiden would mean transactions can fail with lost funds.

>> No.12074621

Tezos and EOS don't have 10% failure rates and they have scaling solution that doesn't fucking suck. Maybe some of you brainlets are cool with the 10% failure rate shit where your fucking money vanishes into thin fucking air but I sure as fuck am not. Nobody with half a brain is. Anyone who wants to try and talk me into that shit can auto KYS an hero style to save fucking time.

>> No.12074801

>>12072573
Although obvious shill, I have some Tezos too and must say that I agree with most of what you talk about here