/biz/ - Business & Finance

This is normal. People can afford a lot more with them because the increased productivity makes everything cheaper.

the spread is automation and outsourcing. so no. wages are stagnant and will drop because soon people won't even be necessary in the future. what are the consequences of that? that's an exercise for you

There is a limit a wagie need to live, the rest must go to mrs goldstein.

>>11976263
but the cost of everything has gone up

>>11976275
This. Can't beat a specialized machine, so learn how to build them.

>>11976263
Relative to wages, rent, housing, cars, and most especially healthcare, have increased in cost by orders of magnitude.

This is unambiguously wrong.

>>11976275
>what are the consequences of that?
Mass immigration from central and south america?

>>11976293
That's a meme we're told. Look up how much a TV cost in the 1990s or a computer/printer in 2000.

>>11976315
And then look at everything else. >>11976305

>>11976237
yeah when bernie wins the election

lol jk fuck commies and fuck jannies, nice try leftypol, and fuck goods producing wageslaves

>>11976370
Prices have gone up, but the value per dollar has gone up even more. Look at cars in the 70's, how much would you pay now for a car like that? THAT difference is thanks to productivity increases.

Things only SEEM more expensive because our expectations have risen faster than the wages. Full service healthcare is 10x more expensive now because it can do 100x more than it could in the 70's.

>>11976263
WRONG

>>11976411
And yet an apartment is an apartment.

You've gone from arguing 'things are cheaper' to 'things are more expensive for good reason.' Even with these mobile goalposts you're still wrong when it comes to some basic necessities.

>>11976293

More people in the world, less resources. Only one that doesn't make much sense is housing as there's lots of it out there, it's just all being bought out by people using it as investment vehicles.

>>11976448
I never said things are cheaper, I said people can afford more with the same money. Which is true.

Real estate is currently in a huge bubble though which is why it's the exception to this.

>>11976484
> increased productivity makes everything cheaper
=/=
> people can afford more with the same money
But it remains irrelevant. An apartment is an apartment, an oven is an oven, a couch is a couch, a cart of groceries is a cart of groceries

>>11976411
>being this deluded

>>11976533
He sounds like a tribesman

>>11976263
This is supposed to happen by real wages increasing. Real wages being stagnate means /relative/ to everything else, wages have roughly the same value. Unfortunately, where inflation has increased has been among really important stuff like healthcare and college.

>>11976501
the question is, are new apartments/ovens/couchs being built at a rate faster than pop growth/immigration (consumption), taking into account inflation rates? then the average wage / price of these goods ratio should be going down. Is it?

>>11976644
New or old is irrelevant. Because wages are stagnant, these things have become more expensive. This is what the thread started out discussing.

You have now pivoted to a third potential explanation for why the cost of living relative to wage growth has increased by orders of magnitude.

>>11976669
if wages are stagnant, dollar is inflating over time and production has increased, price of goods should at the very least be stable. If things are getting more expensive, you are getting assfucked somewhere. I would blame the banksters (jews)

>>11976237
It will require lots of organizing, fighting for higher wages, shorter hours, and lowering the cost of healthcare/higher education/housing.

>>11976739
gtfo filthy commie, no one likes you here

>>11976669
>>11976720
Wages are stagnant in real terms. This means overall, prices are still the same relative to wages as they were. The problem is, inflation is made up of averaging lots of different goods and their price changes. What's gotten more expensive is predominantly healthcare, higher education and housing, all things which disproportionately eat away at "middle class" incomes.

n o...wages are going to sputter and spike a bit but get used to this. You'll notice the chart divergence circa 1970...coincidentally as record numbers of women started to enter the workforce as well as opening up the immigration floodgates. Can't tell normies this because its racist and misogynist. Despite the evidence written by foundation after foundation and book after book. Don't ask me to cite anything theres tons of info out there.
And its only going to continue as far as I can see.

>>11976411
my dad and his three siblingings were able to buy a brand new ford truck for my grandpa working an entire summer back in 72. they work was picking in the fields. no way that can he doné today

>>11976750
>inflation is made up of averaging lots of different goods and their price changes

Not all industries saw the same level of productivity gains.

Fast food isn't more that much more productive than it was 30 years ago.

Also, I'm not sure the graph is for "total compensation" as benefits like health insurance, 401k contributions, and other perks have become more common.

not until we can fix the shitskin problem

>>11976411
>10x
>100x
Pulling random numbers out of ye pants?

>>11976781
you know what I mean.

>>11976275
Universal basic income?

Nice outdated chart fag
Reminder that Trump singlehandedly solved the Wage problem with his tax cuts
Commie fags can stay mad or accept the truth

>>11976811
nice bait

>>11976811
We're only now barely breaking 3% wage growth, in large part because the gutless Boomer can't into deportations.

>>11976787
Read up on how much more efficient fast food has become my dude.
You'd be shocked.

>>11976720
Agreed, but not on the root cause, comrade.

>>11976864
>Read up on how much more efficient fast food has become my dude.
how much more efficient?

>>11976836
Trumps tax cuts were to raise wages and was successful dumbass
you can keep ignoring the facts if you want

>>11976844
minimum wages have been growing a dollar per year in my state. Much greater than 3%.

>>11976811
The opposite is true.
https://twitter.com/business/status/1020645157035704320?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1020645157035704320&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vox.com%2F2018%2F7%2F23%2F17602746%2Ftax-cuts-work-bloomberg-wages

>>11976890
>minimum wages have been growing a dollar per year in my state.

Cool. That helps a couple percent of people who actually earn minimum wage. Now factor in other laborers, other states, and, oh yeah, the 22 million illegals who can underbid any "minimum wage".

>>11976864
imho everything points to interest on money being the culprit

>>11976237
Yeah in 2 years

>>11976903
nice strawman. automation and 3rd world outsourcing disproportionately outweighs the illegals in the stagnant wages problem
but please go ahead and push your xenophobic agenda some more. it doesn't matter in the long run. it's sad that you provide no more economic input than a bunch of illiterate brown people

>>11976898
>unofficial outdated cherrypicked data
did you even read the article?

>>11976903
>Now factor in other laborers, other states, and, oh yeah, the 22 million illegals who can underbid any "minimum wage".
and youre implying trump hasnt been trying to do anything about this? Please, give a better suggestion than corporate tax cuts and deportation

>>11976263

That only applies to consumer goods like clothes and electronics. Food, housing, transportation, and healthcare are several times more expensive. The stagnation in wages coincides with increased competition from Asia and Latin America as global free trade exploded and labor unions died while major global conglomerates consolidated entire indistries and tax policy shifted the tax burden to the lower classes in the name of economic growth, which just accelerated the investment in those other countries to move high paying jobs there.

>>11976411

This is only true of certain goods. TVs and clothes, yes. Cars, housing, and healthcare are many times more expensive even relative to the average and median incomes. That leads to a net stagnation of the standard of living.

>>11976772
Ford Trucks today go for like 35k today. That's more than half of all Americans make in a year let alone a summer.

>>11976787

The cost of healthcare is far more expensive and 401ks have replaced far more secure and lucrative pension plans. If you take those things into account, I suspect you’d see wages not just stagnating, but falling in the USA.

>>11977059
They've fallen make no mistake.

>>11977059
see
>>11976275

>>11976975
lol have another then:
https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-why-wages-in-the-us-have-been-going-nowhere-2018-7
The consensus from economists is that the tax cuts have done nothing for wages.

>>11977007

Ford trucks START at $35k. Most of them with basic options cost about $45-50k or more. New cars are better made and longer lasting than ever, but they have gone from being affordable parts of middle class life to being luxury items that only the wealthy and boomers can afford and remain financially stable.

>>11976902
Chart wages along with corporate profits and then get back to me

>>11977076

People will always be necessary because certain things just can’t be automated, though many jobs can. Socialists used to write of an automated future as a socialist utopia of 15 hour work weeks and high standards of living. Current technology makes that possible now, but the economic and social systems we’ve built prevent that from happening.

>>11976237
It looks like the future SV vs ABC hash rate graph

>>11977078
I know you communist faggots never had a job, but actually wages are increasing rapidly each year and companies have so much extra cash they are rising wages at an acceptable level whilst doing buybacks at the same time alongside the usual 5% increase raise per year they already do

>>11976237
This doesn't take into account benefits.

>>11977129
lol even the white house says that by every conceivable metric they're not growing
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/05/white-house-says-wages-are-growing-faster-than-traditional-measures-indicate.html
Just keep stomping your foot and saying up is down

>>11977129
I mean, when the spin is "they're growing, but the indicators say they're not!" then you should know something is up

>>11977085
Yeah, inflation is much than we're told.

>>11976294
This. I'm 6 years out of college making $154k per year doing dev work and will have almost a million saved by the time I'm 30 at current rates. When my job gets replaced by automation, I'll learn the neck technological black swan and move to that. You either adapt, or die.

>>11977195
kek this.
>>11977121
sure, some people will still be needed. the vast majority won't. what do you suggest happens to the economically irrelevant at that point?

>>11976237
It's impossible unless everyone becomes their own master.
Which they won't.

>>11976237

"normal"?

You think the post WWII period was "normal"? The whole industrial world was blown apart except the United States. That's not "normal".

Unskilled workers don't get high wages in a healthy economy. Sorry.

>>11976237
The productivity is due to machines and other automation. Why should workers be paid more for that?

>>11977085
>new care are better made and lasting longer than ever

KEK

>>11977504
>muh capital assumes all the risk
have fun when nobody beyond the capital owners are able to circulate capital within the system

bump

>>11976237
they will once 90% dies

>>11978354
kek holy shit is this real

>>11976237
>implying

>>11976237
>Are wages ever going to return to normal?

Nope. And as a result they will continue to not be have to fill positions.

I recently turned down a job because they wouldn't match my pay from my old employer. The position has been open for over 10 months and they can't find anyone. The frustration in the HR lady after I kept turning them down was beautiful. Fuck em

>>11978377
now post home prices

>>11978354

Why the fuck couldn't they start with the blacks first? Get those apes' numbers under control and you eliminate half the crime in civilized countries, along with all the extra police, prisons, court, healthcare, and welfare costs they bring with them.

>>11978401

>>11978440
6000x in 50 years, pathetic I make that in 1h with my bot daytrading chainlink

>>11978452
kys

>>11978504
yeah I have euthanasia shceduled for next month, gotta pass some psychiatric tests first

>>11976263
This is wrong. And the graph is ->real<- income, i.e. adjusted for inflation.

>>11976237
Sure, just undo postwar immigration policies.

>>11978439
black population have stayed steady, it's the spics that are breeding like mad

>>11978584
>>11978606
pol faggots threatened by low iq brownies because they're more useful than them and cheaper too. still the brown tsunami pales in comparison to the obsolescence caused by software and automation

I'm 35 and my health care job will never be automated in my working lifetime, so thankfully I was born too early to worry about that. But unfortunately also too early to enjoy the fully automated luxury space communism of our future

>>11978584
>>11978606
In the most complete study every done on the topic (and one, I should note, published under the direct authority of the Trump administration), the myth of immigrants as a detrimental force on the economy was been completely dispelled:
https://www.nap.edu/catalog/23550/the-economic-and-fiscal-consequences-of-immigration

Find a new fucking angle you colossal losers

>>11978393
I see positions opened for months and months on Indeed. I always assumed they were just fake job ads.

>>11978440
What are Germany and Japan doing right?

>>11979296
great question actually. don't know but we should find out.

>>11978761
You believe this garbage? I've seen wages go down with my own two eyes due to cheap immigrant labor.

>>11978761
>kike puppet repeats kike talking points
WOW

>>11979366
you must be a colossal loser like the other anon said
>>11979376
>muh jewish conspiracy

>>11979289

No, there's a huge shortage of "skilled" workers.

>>11979376
you're a disgusting NPC. please remove yourself from society.

>>11977121
>possible now but
Most people are stuck on forager tier modes of operation. Saving and investing is completely foreign to their psychology. They will spend 100% of their income like it's rotting meat even though they could easily survive on less if they stopped incessantly signaling status. Socialist foragers will never reach a utopia because they are not capable of delaying gratification. They are perpetual parasites that deserve nothing but a helicopter ride.

>>11977272
Why the fuck do code monkeys get paid so much in murica

>>11976263
>index relative to 1970

>>11979911
We need those mobile phone apps that tell me when and how to wipe my ass. Its the future you fucking retard, singularity is almost here and we need every coder we can get to solve easy problems in a complicated way.

>>11977271
>shadowstats

>>11976237
Reminder that the supposed drop in cost that everyone keeps arguing about isn't actually a drop in cost, it's a drop in quality because modern society stopped caring about quality. The price of fast food is relatively the same as it was 40 years ago, but the quality is far worse relative to what it should be right now with this technological abundance. It's actually the same with cars and pretty much everything - the cars we have right now, following the technological advancement trend since the post-war boom, should be basically full electric for the modest price of $30k, but what we get is a slightly improved full combustion shitmobile that doesn't even look good. You can look everywhere and you'll see the same shit, even for an example an industry that basically no one mentions but plays such a massive role in our lives - shipping. When was the last time there was a major improvement in commercial naval technologies, even considering the fact that we have highly sophisticated NNs that can easily phase out the entire crew? People completely forgot that ships even existed, let alone remind themselves that that industry has been in a complete stagnation since the 70s and that most modern tankers are literally just ships from then that haven't stopped floating

Don't mistake stagnation of quality as a "drop of cost"

>>11979325
>>11979296
Stagnating demographically
And now that they imported millions of shitskins, prices are picking up