/biz/ - Business & Finance

you want someone else to paraphrase Marx but you don't care for the ideological connotations? are you selfaware? or just an npc

>>11957921
socioeconomic incels complaining about socioeconomic chads and that capitalism is unfair

>>11957921
“Kill whitey” - summary of his ideas

Ignore the pleb-poster >>11957931
Karl Marx said "Karl Marx is not a Marxist."

This was at the end of his life, when he saw his writing being used by revolutionaries set on hurrying up the fall of capitalism to make way for commune-based living.

If you read his work without too much bias, you can see someone writing pragmatically about the market-driven eco only he found himself in. When he was talking about workers uniting and shedding their chains you have to remember there was a whole massive aristocratic class still in existence back then. Virtually every town and village had at least one stately home which was being supported by increasingly mechanised labour. Marx saw these idle rich as the big drain on his society. He saw unity against these households as a fix. He was not really advocating non-hierarchical militarised hivemind nation states.

Today, if you are into crypto, and you view the banking class as a needless and wasteful drain on our societies, then you intuitively understand what Marx was describing in his day, too.

>>11957931
Make his language not mired with idioms of the time he lived in. His writings on the nature of property for example aren't really tied to the days he lived in, they are relevant today as well.
>muh npc
npc-posters are always blatantly projecting, as one can see here.

>>11957972
Any particular book you'd recommend? Or should one go directly to the source text?

>>11957999
you type like a fucking blatantly obvious kike

>>11957999
Try this lad

Marx was mostly operating within the framework of classical economics, anon. This is actually why classical economic was abandoned, the bourgeoisie became too afraid of it providing ammunition to the socialist movement.

You want to understand marxian economics the first should read contending economic theories: neoclassical, Keynesian and marxian. You should also understand the basic ideas of david Ricardo and Adam Smith.

Perhaps the three most important aspects of marxs theory was the labor theory of value, exploitation, and the tendency for the rate of profit to fall. Essentially he said that the value of goods, that is their long term exchange (equilibrium) exchange ratio between goods was determined by the amount of socially necessary labor time required to make them. This meant values, and real prices of commodities, goes down when labor saving technology is used. (Even main stream economists say the only way to have real wage growth is to have higher productivity, this is a similar forumulation) Competition also means that you cannot simply do a really lazy or bad job and expect a higher value, hence socially necessary. And if you are making something that doesnt have a use value in the first place, you aren't making a commodity.

With the theory of exploitation Marx isnt necessarily making a moral arguement. Rather, he's saying that the reason profit and surplus value exists is because the value of labor power is not determined by the value of the goods produced, but rather by the value of the commodities required to reproduce that labor. This allows profit and surplus to exist.

>>11958040
Thanks

>>11957999
The Communist Manifesto is not difficult to read. After that if you still feel you need to know more Google "Marxist critical theory" and you'll find an infinity of tenured academics churning and reselling somebody else's idea.

>>11958025
You type like a braindead moron.

The best take is that Marx was actually libertarian

>>11958049
And the tendency of the rate of profit to fall is a theory about how profit in an industry is determined by the amount of organic constant capital in it. This is empirically true, btw, as are the other theories. He furthermore posits that organic constant capital generally increases over time as labor and efficiency saving technology is discovered and widely adopted due to competition. As the costs for capital increase relative to surplus value, so does the rate of profit go down over time. This is a big driver of instability as money capital seeks out riskier and riskier investments to get the same returns it used to.

>>11957948
L fucking mao

526. The argument between socialism and capitalism comes down to this: to those who, when left to their own devices, naturally rise above the mean, and to those who fall below. The former will be proponents of capitalism, the latter of socialism. The former are talented and hard-working, the latter talentless and lazy. And all this is proved by the failure of socialism, and in particular that of communism: its ultimate manifestation — as if a group of habitual losers at the individual level would be able to create, by pooling together all their weaknesses and failures, a winning combination!
But it is plain that, as they lose on the individual level — as individuals — they will ultimately lose on the group level too. The only reason they temporarily succeeded at a few points in history is because they were facing even greater losers: a complacent and degenerate aristocracy.

>>11957999
I mention contending economic theories, you should also try to read capital eventually. That is the bulk of his economic work. Maybe read wage labor and profit first. All this stuff is online btw

>>11958086
When is this initial state of universal equality established?

>>11958094
Complaining about one's lot in life is just another cop out.

>>11958086
If capitalism was a true meritocracy it would have blown up year 1. Nothing breeds resentment more than being worse off in society because you are in actuality inferior.

>>11958087
Thanks

>>11957948
this, but it could be more eloquintly greentexted like this:

>History can be understood as a constant struggle between oppressed groups and those who oppress them
>Capitalism hinders personal actualization
>If it makes money and a rich person owns it then take it from them and give it to the workers

It gets more retarded as it goes on as you can see

>>11957999
I'll say what I always say to people, read Critique of the Gotha Programme, shit's like twenty pages and the rest is just other people commenting on it.

>>11958106
You whole point lied in an initial state after which great individuals float to the top, and the shit one drown. There's little argument that this is desirable.
Not really sure where did this initial state happened. Is it true for every person that is born? How do the inhericucks come into this?

>>11958108
Only a sick creature would choose a stranger over his blood.
Also, strong family/cultural bonds are yet another strategy in the game of life. And yet another thing that those who can't handle it complain about.

>>11958086
The retarded lazy bum children of successful men are not socialists.

The concept of inherited wealth kills your entire position.

>>11958120
Will check out, thanks

He was one of the kikes that invented communism and should have been publicly before he was allowed to open his mouth.

>>11958131
It's not the socialist who wishes to destroy the family, but capitalism. The extended family is the bedrock of cuban society, for example.

>>11958131
What topic are you talking about. Certainly the one we supposedly were discussing.
Fuck off with your knee-jerk strawmen elsewhere

>>11958123
It's nothing to do with desirable. It's nature. No one is born equal, that's the point. This jealousy of inheritance is just another form of ressentiment, whining instead of doing something about it, or even, trying to rally a bigger group of losers to steal from the rich because inheritance is so unfair.
But only a sick withering human wouldn't set up his offspring with the best starting position in life.

>>11958154
>But only a sick withering human wouldn't set up his offspring with the best starting position in life.
That nullifies the statement made earlier, given the assumption that the losers started from an equal footing to the current winners.
This is obviously not the case.

remainder that if your parents gave you money as inheritance:
>they were shitty parents who neglected you and want to compensate by giving you a non-state provided gibsmedat
>Basically admit you are a utter failure that can't fend for himself. Hopefully the defect is not genetic so that you might correct it with the mass of undeserved wealth you now have.

/biz/ is full of commie faggots
Jesus !

>>11958147
He didn't invent communism. The people who actually invented it had him push it for them with his Communist Manifesto, where the foundation was already established, he just filled in the gaps and put it in terms that would make it more palatable to the masses and relevant to the contemporary political climate.

>>11958182
I disagree. An inheritance is a responsibility.

>>11958167
You are strawmanning with the equal starting point. You want to make it seem like inheritance is undeserved, yet old money has been building, sometimes for centuries, to get into the position they are.
While your forebears probably whined about life being so u fair, like you now, and your offspring after you.

>>11958150
THIS. Gay people with no kids spend the most on garbage products and leisure.

>>11958200
Read the post this discussion started from. It's literally in the post, at the start.

>>11958198
>An inheritance is a responsibility.
Like people have responsibility to mentally disabled children in their community.
What parents are responsible of is raising the child to be able to fend for themselves.

>>11958192
communism is just what happens when capitalism is taken to it's logical conclusion, anon

Let me just end on this note. For those who are capable but misled.
If you follow communism, you are CATTLE, used by one group of elites, to bring down another group of elites by riling up the ressentment in you.
After communism is implemented before it implodes or turns into pure police state, you will still be CATTLE. Your master will just have changed.
A cursory study of actual historic facts will give you ample examples.

>>11958226
Intending to give their children an heritance does not prevent a parent from raising their child to fend for themself. The inheritance would be a strong reason for the parent to ensure their child can fend for themself so that they can be assured that the wealth they preserved or created will not go to waste. The inheritance can be witheld until the parents decide their child can fend for themself.

>>11958238
Also this. None of the powerful people pushing for communism actually adhere to the ideology. Paraphrasing Spengler who said that there was never a communist movement that wasn't at heart capitalist.

Tldr: idiotic in theory and always genocidal in practice.

>>11958238
>my audience is cattle
>the only redpilled thing you can do is never challenge the system
>checkmate gommies

>>11958198
You're a retard. He was very responsible and pretty much the worst philosopher of all time. Only kikes say "Marx was not a marxist", all of Marxism was based around what he wrote.

loser ideology for losers.

>>11957921
He was making the argument that changing the economic system would solve the problem of worker exploitation and inequal distribution of wealth without accounting for human nature.

Why are there businesses exploiting workers? Why are there poor people who keep living on welfare? It's not because of the system. It's because the business owners and the welfare leech are shitty people.

Communism works until you run out of other peoples money.

>>11958408
This might just be the dumbest most lemming take in the whole thread

>>11958365
I'm not saying he wasn't responible for what he did. I'm just saying why he did it.

>>11957972
Maybe you should move to Venezuela if you like Marx so much

>>11958134
Imagine that capitalism is more succesfull in creating prosperity despite that. Kinda proves his point, doesn't it?

>>11957921
INARGUABLY BEST MARX QUOTE COMING THROUGH

>>11958283
>Is against an oppressive state
>Wants to create an even more oppressive (communist) state
>"Haha... I am challenging the system!"
...but you are not challenging the principles that make it oppressive in the first place.
You are merely puting them to another use. The state as a tool is inherently evil, and gommie faggots like you can't seem to realise that.

>>11958063
>t. dumbfuck

>>11958059
Dress it up with some more verbiage, professor thesaurus

>>11958232
no faggot, communism is what happens when people are brainwashed by dumbfuckery. you are one of these people.

>>11958507
Many eastern bloc countries such as Yugoslavia had citizen militias designed to make invasion more difficult, it's one reason its break up was so bloody.

Whether the state is evil or not is irrelevant, it is the unit of political organization that we are faced with. The only way to destroy the state is to destroy its foundations: state enforced property rights, uneven international development, money, ect.

>>11958540
If the state is not evil why destroy it?

Yes. Lets end the capitalism driven economic that is lead by a few wealthy indoviduals, and give control to a small priviledged communist cadre.

Difference is trivial and normal people suffer.

>>11958540
>Many eastern bloc countries such as Yugoslavia had citizen militias designed to make invasion more difficult, it's one reason its break up was so bloody.
The break up was only possible because of the local militarisation, if the seperate yugoslav states didn't have the capabilty to fight then history would look quite different. A serbian controlled central military would succesfully guarantee the oppression of the other peoples of the yugoslav federation, since there would be nothing they could do about it.

>Whether the state is evil or not is irrelevant, it is the unit of political organization that we are faced with.
This is probably the main misstake of Marx, he just took the system in use, the state, for granted, and made his theories with the state as his basis - therefore leading to the practicall failure of his ideology in practice, since the state is inherently oppressive as a system. That is not irrelevant.

>The only way to destroy the state is to destroy its foundations: state enforced property rights, uneven international development, money, ect.
I mostly agree.

>>11958063
Maybe this guy is onto something. It is weird how libertairians so easily turn to both communism and fascism

>>11958516
t. hasn't even read Das Kapital

>>11957921
>Advice from a jobless kike leech

>>11958462

Venezuela is arguably one in a long series of countries that wanted to adobt a fairer society only to get (economically) pillaged, ravaged and embargoed by the world leaders.

Why would the leading capitalist power (USA) send military forces or impose trade restrictions if the common knowledge is that communist / socialist economies starve people and fail?

It doesn't make logical sense, and this is becuase the discussion is ideologically biased and reeks in propaganda. See Vietnam war.

>>11957921
The American system of self determination and self employment was true socialism before socialism even existed. In a system like the Founders intended, where every man works for himself gets what he earns. When every man works for himself he controls the means of production and gets whatever profits he earns.

Biggest problem with socialists is very few of them have any real world experience and are basically bookworm fags. They read their theory faggotry and then proceed to act smug as if they're better than everyone, despite accomplishing nothing in their life. Fact is, most socialists and communists throughout history are the most exploitative ever simply because they rise to power and completely leach off the backs of the workers they claim to be "helping". It's a bunch of bullshit and commies in this thread need to hang

>>11958540
Yugoslavia wasnt a eastern block country you dum dum....thats the reason it was a bit less shitty than other communist shitholes.

>>11958564

Why not make everyone's bank account and money transaction history visible to everyone by state law?

It's as easy as cake to implement technically (swift, online banking, sql queries on the databases by some googleesque search engine.).

Inb4 "my privacy", but you don't seem to care that much when the privacy of your brain organs get exposed by mercenary fired shotgun blasts.

>>11958794
lmao shut the fuck up faggot. fucking keyboard warrior, we're still waiting for you faggots to kick off the communist revolution. dumb fucking nigger

>>11958812
>fucking keyboard warrior
look whos talking

>>11958771
You sure? Pretty sure it was

>>11958771
Wow, doing some reading. It wasnt. Interesting

>>11958732
Read Marx, in "Das Kapital" he basically stated what you just wrote in the first chapter for rural Germany and England, but 160 years ago.

>>11958812

Yes these are words only, but when words meet deaf ears and humiliation words turn into actions.

Do you really think revolutions and wars happen only in text books?

>>11957921
No inheritance. Parents die? None of their money goes to you. Still like this idea?

>>11959246
No problems with it.
Why do you feel entitled to money someone else earned?

>>11959246

Yes.

If it means trust fund babies don't inherit their father's stolen millions, and have to work for themselves without the perks they were provided with by birth:

1) Mansions
2) Private schools
3) Private vacation districts
4) Private medial care
5) Closed rich communities
6) Intelligence in corporate architectures

Everyone gets a state owned flat, food and clothes and a safety deposit (6 months of rent) The rest gets confiscated.

>>11959310
Youre a total wanker. Those people are a small minority of the people who get an inheritance. Youre everything i despise about marxism

>>11958232
>communist praxes are so hilariously useless that a serious, unironic academic theory is "communism will just happen through capitalism"

Evrn your theorists are maximum cope

>>11959538
>small minority of the people who get an inheritance
who get a grossly disproportionate amount of influence

>>11959310
Thank god I have communism to save me from my middle class lifestyle!

Mandatory state only education, mandatory commieblock high rise housing! Utopia!

>>11957921
put your money where your mouth is and distribute your wealth to the community you are part of

>>11958232
what you call capitalism is actually corporatism

>>11959639
>real capitalism hasn't been tried yet

>>11959538

Argument ad hominem.

>>11959650
real capitalism was devoured by corporatism in its infancy
corporatism brings about globalism
globalism is the communism envisioned by Marx

>>11959669
Fallacy fallacy, address his argument instead of finding a fallacy that's unrelated to his salient point

>>11959591

How on earth do you justify people living in mansions enjoying private education while other people are homeless and starve?

What exactly is the ideology or scientific theory behind this?

Why should houses exist if its impissible for everyone to own a house?

>>11959676
this is the dumbest thing i've read yet today but the day is early.
>>11959669
dumbass. an insult accompanied by a proper argument isn't ad hominem

>>11958116
>It gets more retarded as it goes on as you can see
this

>>11959679

Fallacy fallacy?

His argument has already been adressed by >>11959586

>>11959702

Ad hominem is claiming I'm a marxist.
Insulting people won't get you anywhere.

Now please justify why exlusive institutions should exist?

>>11959700
Because the alternative is a concrete commie hellworld where living in peace by myself in a small community away from the city centre is illegal

I really don't give a fuck about outlier cases

>>11959811
In a single family home with no shared walls*

>>11959811
Can everyone, every 60 million frenchman or 80 million germans, live in peace by themselves in a small community away from the city centre?

>>11959836
Equality of outcome is an arbitrary ethical axiom and I reject it as I have no reason to accept it

>>11959700

you see this is all a part of HUMAN NATURE. we evolved like this

Even when we were but simple grugs, human have always concentrated their wealth into the hands of a very few. You want to live in a cave? cave private property, pay grugstein half your berries. You want to hunt? sorry, griggs grandfather took a shit there, so the woods are his. Grug loves the way he lives though, because it is hardwired into his DNA to work 12 hours a day in another mans cave. He was born to do it
Even lobsters have been shown to exhibit this behaviour.

Marx clearly knew nothing about human nature because he was an autistic NEET who never studied lobsters

>>11959868

Well so is theft.

>>11959220
Fucking retard, the Founders stated it over 100 years before Marx did, fuck off. And if you think the working class will choose communism then jfl @ you. They fucking hate you and want nothing to with communist bullshit

>>11959882
Sure, but legalism is a practical solution for the sort of world I want to live in. However I'm not about to give up wiping my ass just because someone somewhere can't afford toilet paper.

>>11958150
>It's not the socialist who wishes to destroy the family

Yes it is. Socialists want the nanny state to be their family.

>>11958150
Then why are so many commies obsessed with "deconstructing" families because having one gives you an advantage?

>>11959879
>we evolved like this

Burden of proof. We evolved to live in a society, with collective farm work, trade, currency, taking care of the old etc.

The historic argument is a state, a moral codex (code hammurabi, bible) and a king.

Hunterers and barbarians died off and couldn't survive.

What you describe is some kind of flintstone-esque gross marginalisation that exists only in your head.

"Socialism" is the trendy buzzword that corporatists will use to force taxpayers to give more money to private cartels. Think Obamacare for every aspect of the economy.

>>11958408
>He was making the argument that changing the economic system would solve the problem of worker exploitation and inequal distribution of wealth without accounting for human nature.

So he effectively was not making an argument at all because there would not be workers if humans didn't exist.

>>11959986
Marxs problem is he believed in tabula rasa - that humans are blank slates and 100% malleable in their behavior. Evolutionary psychology and neuroscience over the past 150 years have resoundly refuted this idea.

>>11959925
Commies say that the family unit will dissolve itself. as well as love. There is no need for advocating it.
It will not be needed anymore because of the mechanism of socioeconomic progress. We can clearly see that today.

>>11959910
>wiping my ass just because someone somewhere can't afford toilet paper.

Say hello to Juan Carlos, he used to live south of your country but he now wants toilet paper, too. Your toilet paper. He is glad you have adopted legalism and freedom to buy toilet paper.

>>11959740
>Now please justify why exlusive institutions should exist?

Because there is no resources to offer those services to everyone. Touche.

>>11959700
Are you stupid? The world isn't fair, some people are born beautiful some smart and some rich, and then some are all three. To try and make everybody equal, you have to drag everyone down.

Poor people are poor because they're stupid and make bad decisions, especially if they live in a free country. You probably thought up a bunch of excuses but these are just rationalizations you think up to protect your soft ego - anyone living in the US that finishes highschool, holds onto a job (any job), and doesn't get kids before marriage has a 98% chance of not being poor.
Those are all personal responsibility issues, not "the man" keeping people down or whatever.

Money is just a quantification of how good someone is at managing resources, good resource managers get more resources to manage, creating a positive feedback loop, which naturally leads to a power-law distribution.

Stop that and you have resources being managed by morons (like you) that squander wealth and then wonder why famines are occurring.
>b-but the state will manage it... they will hire the best of the best bureaucrats
You're 100 years too late to this debate, look up the "socialist calculation problem"

Simply put, stealing from the rich and giving to the poor is destroying capital (ie. the capacity to produce wealth), not distributing it. That's why every single place that implemented these ideas turn to shit fast.

>b-but inheritance is unfair because I'm entitled to someone else's property
If some rich guy's son is a dumb cunt, he'll just spend the money, "giving it back to society" so to speak. You're just some self-entitled prick who thinks he can spend it better.

You people live in a fairytale reality where rich people go for generations being rich, this is simply not true, the average fortune is squandered in two generations flat, maybe even less (check how "well" rappers/footballers are doing past their prime)

>s-so you think people should just die in the gutter!
False dichotomy

>>11960081
>Money is just a quantification of how good someone is at managing resources

This is objectively false though. How do you account luck in this formula? A hillbilly winning the lottery? A nigger rapper becoming a millionaire?

>>11960081
>some people are born rich
>Money is just a quantification of how good someone is at managing resources
standard knee-jerk uninformed retort

>>11958086

>when left to their own devices

Ok, so when can we start this experiment and actually leave trust fund babies who never have to work a day in their lives to their own devices and see how they escape poverty

>>11957921
Beard man BAD!

>tfw biz is now Marxist

In the end, all there is to say is... come fucking get it you marxist leeches! Come and try get my children's inheritance. Over my and my peers dead bodies though.
Also, bitcoin will make it even harder for you faggots to fund your jealousy driven insanity.

>>11960106
>Today is snowing, therefore global warming isn't real
Think in terms of decades anon... It doesn't matter if Cletus won the lottery and lost it all in less than 5 years, about rappers, just google "nigger rich."
Needless to say, these people's wealth don't make it past the first generation.

Believing that once someone gets rich, they'll stay rich forever is poor people thinking.

>>11960658
>Over my and my peers dead bodies though.

ok then. easy.

First, start a central bank. Marxists love central banks. Then, convince everyone who is willing to turn in their gold and silver for paper with numbers. Then inflate the paper in order to fund the government. Then blame capitalism to bring in socialism. Then bring in communism because socialism is basically communism just without the killing of Christians and eating of foreskins(gotta eat something).

>>11957921
>hUrr Durr BAD CAPITALISM SHOO
Marx can literally fuck right off. If he understood even a single ounce of natural selection he would never have written this burning pile of steaming shit.

>>11960033
Good thing the legal system doesn't care who believes in stealing.

>>11960726
>>11960729
>>11960855
>muh strawmen and petty threats

>>11957972
>Marx saw these idle rich as the big drain on his society
So what /biz/tards want to become by trading in v-bucks and ISK around?

Oh why am I kidding, ISK is a far better currency than shitcoins have ever been.

>>11961261
EVE Online ISK*

Not the Islander Krona

Though that's a decent currency too.

>

>>11958134
Trust fund kiddies that don't know how to manage money bankrupt themselves with art degrees

>>11960855
Herbert Spencer is an idiot who purposefully twisted Darwin's ideas. He'd laugh at you for your rudimentary understanding of natural selection.

>>11961334
Those degrees are paid fof. There they meet similar wasters who can peddle retarded ideas and push them successfuly by virtue of raw cash and connections alone.

>>11958540

>The only way to destroy the state is to destroy its foundations: state enforced property rights, uneven international development, money, ect.

God damn, you are either 18 or the best example of the dunning-kruger effect I have ever seen. There is only one foundational principle of state: "sactioned" violence in the enforcement of rules. No function of state occurs without violence or threat of violence. Taxes, mandatory education, drug laws, none of it would happen if there weren't State agents with guns able to ruin your life if you don't comply. Those rules could be as arbitrary as "no money" and "no property rights", those rules only come into effect if there is State violence to enforce it. "Don't steal my shit" doesn't need the state because every human on Earth will defend their personal property to the degree it's worth that defense.

Property rights, as such, have existed since the first humanoid in pre history built something for themselves and defended it for their personal use. The reason you can use violence to justly defend yourself against rape is because another person is trespassing you personal property right to your body (and it's outputs). No state is necessary to justify that defense, it is inherently moral.

Money likewise existed pre-state, as many tribal systems were know to use mediums of exchange other than straight barter (such as shell money)

A final thought: Marx was a massive hypocritical faggot, a son of the elite, who impregnated and abandond one of his working class maids, who never worked a real job, whoes only accomplishment was a degenerate derivative of greater economic works by greater men, the results of which have been the deaths of over 100,000,000 mostly working class and peasent class people the world over. Only pathetic, weak, sociopathic people who cant figure out how to compete against their better fellow humans follow this garbage.

>>11961433
absolutely based

>>11958732
The american system of free labor that Lincoln believed in indeed would have been a just system. It's too bad it was impossible and large economies of scale destroyed it, replacing it with wage slavery. Even in it's hayday, however, it was more the ideal than the norm.

>>11961433
Easy, Nick

>>11961433
Holy shit this is the first time I really mean it when I say

BASED AND REDPILLED

>>11959879
I'm going to hope this is parody.

>>11961433
>dunning-kruger effect
Why the people who use this phrase are always so hilariously unaware of how applicable it is to them? Without a fucking fault.

>>11959925
'no'

>>11959942
Deconstructing is a Derrida's thing. Generally speaking, Marxists tend to be either for an extended family model, or communal child rearing. The reason for this isn't because a family gives people unfair advantages, but because capitalism has atomized the individual and their most immediate relatives, estranging them from their larger families and the world around them. The communist way is to create stronger social ties between people so they can better support one another.

>>11957921
Dialectical materialism is a bane to human existence and ensures that opposition is not tolerated, but destroyed by any means necessary.

>>11961556

>Directly disproving a juvenile statement about the nature of the State means I unjustly consider myself smart

Feel free to disprove the historical use of shell money, commie retard.

>>11960008
Marx did not believe this at all. Marx certainly believed that humans had a biological nature, but this nature was not what determined the political and economic world around us. Rather, human nature in colloquial use was also determined by material factors in the environment they encountered. this is why certain political, cultural, ideological phenomena tend to occur in certain modes of production.

>>11961622
Again, without a fault.

>>11961634

Your word salad is very tasty, it will look good as a shit in my toilet bowl after I digest it. See, I can say a bunch of words too. Mine just adhear closer to reality than yours.

How about this: how should we hold predominantly white champaign socialists responsible for the historical wrongs they have perpetrated on hundreds of million of non-whites in the socialist state crimes of mass murder, property and land theft, mass rape and society wide imprisonment? We've got to make whitey pay, and whitey has no greater crimes than those perpetrated under Marxism.

>>11961652
Again, without a fault

>>11961433
That the state requires violence to exist is the most banal observation you can get. No fucking shit.

The marxist understanding of the state is exactly premised on seeing it as first and foremost a group of armed individuals. What makes a state different from just run of the mill violence to get what you want is that it creates laws. It's not that these laws are legitimate in any way other than ideology, but rather that this is a large part of what it does. No matter what kind of government, no matter if it's a dictatorship or a parliamentary system, the state creates laws. The purpose of these laws is very simple. The logic of the state is not just to have the most violence around in absolute terms, but relative terms. It must maximize it's own violence while minimizing those who might oppose it. And it can through this through the ideological effect of laws.

The bourgeoisie, the one we currently live under, is founded upon certain ideological principles as a result. It must protect private property, it must take taxes, it must maintain it's territory.

As for property rights, what you described in pre-history is personal property, that is not a property right, it is a simple fact. A fait accompli. It is inherently amoral, in the sense that it is not ethical or unethical, it simple is.

Money, it should be noted, in tribal systems, was not used to buy and sell things. Rather, it was used as a status symbol, to pay moral/legal/customary debts, and to give as a gift. Here's a book on the topic for your edification. https://libcom.org/files/__Debt__The_First_5_000_Years.pdf

It's hilarious that you bring up the dunning-kruger effect given that your arguments are just rehashed bits of popular ideology and culture.

>>11961717
>my words are closer to reality when I'm just repeating tired talking points, not even about reality, but just some 18th century author I've never read
sure thing kid.

Also, didn't know mao was white lol

every argument for marxism is done by american gringo who NEVER set foot in ANY communist country
you don't live in Cuba
you don't live in Vietnam
you don't live in China
you don't live in Venezuela
you don't live in North Korea

and I'm not even attacking marxism or any of these countries
I'm saying that this gringo : >>11961807
>>11961766
>>11961634
>>11961622
>>11961597
>>11961536
>>11961485
>>11958232
>>11958540
>>11958108
>>11958087
>>11958071
>>11958064
>>11958049 HAS NEVER, EVER, lived more than 2 years in any of those places
you are an american, earning dollars.

Why do these communist faggots talk in big pseudointellectual ways? Its so easy to see through

>>11962301
>words hard

>>11962278
I'm chicano m8

>>11961215
You're just upset that I'm right. Big corporations love communists.

>>11960855
Marx was a big fan of Darwin
>In December of 1859, shortly after the publication of The Origins of Species, Friedrich Engels wrote to Marx: "Darwin, whom I am just reading, is splendid." Marx responded: "Although it is developed in the crude English style, this is the book which contains the basis in natural history for our view."
>In the late 1860s, Marx was reported to have declared: "Nothing gives me greater pleasure than to have my name linked onto Darwin's. His wonderful work makes my own absolutely impregnable.
>Enamored of evolution, Marx asked Darwin for permission to dedicate his next volume to him six years later. Troubled by the fact that it would upset certain members of his family to have the name of Darwin associated with an atheistic polemic, Charles politely declined the offer.

>>11959700
Pareto distribution

Winners will still be winners and losers will still be losers no matter the system.

Communism won't get you a girlfriend or money.

>>11957921
Jewish subversive rat

>>11962817
Ironic considering that Marxism flies in the face of Darwinism

>>11958408
>for human nature.
Big redpill here. Humans will always trend towards inequality as we are all given different talents that make us stronger or weaker than others.

>>11962908
Society has to keep tap as to what being a winner means.

>>11961597
I've spoken to countless communists that insist that the family unit is fascist, specifically because it prevents alienation and thus delays the revolution or whatever.

I've noticed this a lot, paradoxically they despise everything western countries use to better themselves, because it makes their lives better, which in turn makes revolution unlikely. I've heard unions and labor laws are "reactionary" unless they are directly involved in organizing a revolt.

>>11963245
It sounds like you've been talking to a lot of meme-tier Maoist Third Worldists. Only the most vulgar marxists focus on accelerating subjective and not material conditions. Social democracy is far more accelerationist by driving down the rate of profit than turning the first world into a hell scape for workers in the hope they'll get fed up with it.

>>11962908
>Pareto Distribution
ahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahaah

>>11963065
Yes, it's completely paradoxical.

>>11961634
Marx believed that "material conditions" - not INFORMED - not INFLUENCED - but DETERMINED (his word not mine) the human mindset and all of society.

That human nature as it were has no bearing on economics or politics is dubious conjecture at best and malicious handwaving of the pitfalls of utopian theorycrafting at worst. Cue reeducation camps.

>>11963281
Well to be fair it was mostly on leftypol

>>11962301
This. My bullshit alarm goes off whenever someone uses a vocabulary level above a Malcolm Gladwell book.

>>11962915
Love to get reamed by my boss's crusty white dick seven days a week because the ((((weekend)))) was created by ((((them))))

>>11963364
Marx believed self-consciousness was human nature, and that this was expressed in different forms in all modes of production. Human creativity was another universal quality he assigned to human nature. Material conditions cannot take these things away, only influence how they are expressed in society.

Human nature has often been used in far more quakish ways, if you actually read how hobbes used human nature in Leviathan it's some of the most idiotic theorycrafting you can imagine, ditto for most social contract theorists. Marx was confronted with a philosophical landscape that used idiotic and extremely specific definitions of human nature to justify pretty much everything and anything going on in society, even though things had worked differently in previous eras. It's no wonder he wanted to move away from that.

>>11963517
it should be noted that Marx early on literally thought "species-essence" was a thing.

>>11961634
If Marx believed only material factors influence the political and economic world around us, then how does changing non-material factors (i.e., the political and economic system) help with the problem at all?

>>11963927
The economic world is a part of the material. The process of labor, production, and the results of that process of production are all material.

>>11964044
The material theory doesn't explain why some people:

1) given the same levels of wealth and income, are conservative with money while others splurge their way to debt.
2) are more hardworking than others
3) are more tolerant of bad conditions.
4) etc.

The material theory only applies if everyone has the same attributes and behavior, which is obviously not the case.

You still haven't answered my question though. How does changing material conditions change the political and economic conditions? Look at the communist revolutions, it certainly didn't stop what had happened before. Many people still remained poor while people in power hoarded resources.

>>11963281
Laugh it up commie it's held true throughout history

>>11959702
yo just checking back in after work to say,
this was still the dumbest thing I heard all day

>>11964197
Marx isn't trying to explain any of those things, he's trying to understand how capitalism functions on a systemic level and what it's tendency's are as a result. I don't know why you think his model requires a single fixed picture of how humans act, that seems more in line with an insistence that only human nature matters.

I think it's also quite false to say the communist revolutions didn't change anything. The soviet union was a more equitable society than the Tsar's russia, and the poor in the USSR were better off than the poor in the US in the post-war period. There were many changes in how production occurred, and in the state's political apparatus. Your claim is incredibly reductionist. If this is your criteria, then no, nothing has ever changed since the birth of civilization because elites exist.

>>11964253
>Pareto efficiency is based in history
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

>ITT dumb /pol/tards that think the cultural marxism conspiracy is the same thing as marx writings

>>11964314
>I think it's also quite false to say the communist revolutions didn't change anything. The soviet union was a more equitable society than the Tsar's russia, and the poor in the USSR were better off than the poor in the US in the post-war period. There were many changes in how production occurred, and in the state's political apparatus. Your claim is incredibly reductionist. If this is your criteria, then no, nothing has ever changed since the birth of civilization because elites exist.

Yes, it didn't, not in the long term at least. Short term changes and improvements don't count. As long as the wealth and power distribution becomes skewed in one direction, then none of the revolutions have accomplished anything except creating chaos for a while. Look at the famines and persecution that had occurred in the Soviet Union. When people die because of crappy policies, it's not an acoomplishment. Whatever successes that have occurred must also be view along with the failures.

The gains in social equity (human rights, stop racial discrimination, etc.) shouldn't be shoehorned into communism because those were attained in non-communist societies as well.

>>11958540
>uneven international development
>subsidize nigger and spic countries because they're less developed

>>11958238
>I read Animal Farm and I am very smart

>>11964473
I think only really the persecutions were something in total excess. The famines were the direct result of the plan to industrial, they needed to use agricultural surplus to feed industrial workers and move resources to industry more generally. If they hadn't done this, it was likely they would have lost WW2.

Once again, comparing the USSR and the US in the post-war period you do see lots of important differences. I don't think the USSR is any kind of society we should aspire to, but this is a simple empirical fact.

>>11961807

A core tenant of marxist retards like you is that anytime there is a brown person suffering, it's probably the fault of some white guy. Mao murdering 60,000,000 of his fellow citizens is because he followed the ideology of Marx, a white european Jew. You, also a (probably) white communist faggot (possibly also Jewish), therfor bear collective responsibility for foisting your imperialist European socialist dogma on these poor unsuspecting gooks. Reparations are in order from the proponents of marxism to the victims of marxism, current and descendants.

>>11962278
/thread
Practice trumps economically isolated theorizing every time.

>>11964549
>A core tenant of marxism is blame whitey for everything
lol, read a fucking book sometime. Marxism is a universalist philosophy. If you're buttmad about critical race theorists using marxist language then keep in mind there's plenty of anti-idpol marxists just as well.

I'm mestizo, btw.

>>11964588
The practice of marxism within capitalism is the economic development. I'm not after utopia, I'm here for the real movement.

>>11957921
Only a few days into 4channel and you already have fucking pinko commie out of the woodwork
and shitty Marx bait threads
god bless

>>11964642

>I'm mestizo

Pack em up and send em home boys. This poor brown person has been exploited by toxic European ideology to the detriment of his own future.

>>11964760
>reddit spacing
perhaps u should go home, anon.

>>11958040
>>11958051

(((rubin)))

>>11964760
>European
Anon, I..
>>11964786
>reddit spacing
you're trying too hard. Neither you or your subhuman ideology belong here, pathethic waste of space

>>11964642
>I'm mestizo
>commie
imagine my shock

>>11964828
I'm here to give out top tier investment and personal finance advice.

>>11964849
>tfw it doesn't matter what race u r, they'll always act like ur a cliche
it's really quite sad how far you guys reach.

>>11964901
Bro, you are passing yourself off as a uber-intellectual here to school us all on how great Marxism is. Honestly you sounds like a undergraduate faggot who just just finished his first "deep" exploration into one political ideology. If you were a blond hair blue eyed Chad living in America banging 10/10 thot's on your way to getting a executive position in a big corporation, there is zero chance you would be regurgitating this garbage. Because you would be a winner, and have no need for State violence to equalize thing for you.

>>11964642
>The practice of marxism within capitalism is the economic development.

What. The practice of 'marxism' (stupid term) in the global economy leads to economic stagnation and loss of freedom with no exceptions.

>>11965019
I'm a pretty well off guy, and if anything I'd probably be taxed more if even the mildest social democrat comes to power. I'm for socialism because I think it's necessary, first and foremost, to prevent ecological collapse, and to find a new engine of consistent growth as the rate of profit falls lower and debt infusions fail to stimulate as well during recessions.

If you want deeper psychology, yeah, I fucking hate the american elites. They have incredible hubris and I'd like to see them taken down a peg. There's a big space, however, between being an elite and being fucked. I have a job waiting for me in government consulting and I've worked with executives of companies that influence our financial system in ways you don't even understand. I am, for all intensive purposes, a member of the american bureaucratic class. A lot of the youth in this class are becoming disillusioned with the system and that's a big danger. In the USSR, it's exactly this disillusionment which marked it's decay.

>>11965139
Communism, if you prefer. I don't care. The communist bloc of the 20th century had it's goal in attempting to catch up to the capitalist countries, given that they were all originally feudal backwaters. To do this, they tried to emulate capitalism as best they could. Stalin was very explicit about this. the USSR failed, but China succeeded. Now, the chinese communist party has become more cucked by accepting billionaires among its members, and we're already seeing the explosion in marxist activity among students, and wildcat strikes among workers as they loose control.

Regardless, in the west, our main goal is to push the rate of profit down further. This can be accomplished with shorter working days, better pay/benefits, and more investment in research and development. Of course, it's no coincidence this can only be achieved through class struggle.

>>11957921
Marx is right anon, give up your bitcoins. Send them here, which is the bitcoin address to establish the Kekistani ethnostate... don't believe me? Google it.
1ESPzufmsehqFfGzbvz3fKwhJZALQQatJo

>token Communist on /biz/ is indio
Why am I not surprised?

>>11964901
>give out top tier investment and personal finance advice
now you are just taking the piss
>they'll always act like ur a cliche
because you are a living cliche. You share traits with every single disgusting commie out there. This century we'll get rid of this poison but keep on being a useful idiot for people who couldnt care less about you

>>11957946
Socioeconomic chads having their chad status explained so clearly that they take extreme measures to avoid the inevitable consequences of the 'incels' understanding of their creation and maintenance of chad status as well as their de facto power over the whole status hierarchy.

>>11965319
I got plenty of iberian blood back there too
>>11965341
>You share traits with every single disgusting commie out there.
And what are those, pray tell

>>11957972
Marx helped organize boycotts of slave-sourced cotton at the same time as he skewered Southern politicians who tried to claim the war wasn't about the establishment of a slave republic. His journalism is as famous as his books.
Anyone who thinks slavery, however it may be presented, is in the past and not a consideration now, needs to get out more.

To Marx's credit, he at least managed to not fall into Lockean liberalism/libertarianism, and was able to grasp that property is not prior to the state. Libertarianism is extremely autistic. However, his solution to this is more spontaneous order, as in, somehow property will become collectively owned while simultaneously destroying the state, when all public property thus far has existed through state ownership. If I recall correctly, he also supported democracy. What is needed is MORE authority, not less. The exploitative behavior of corporations and democratic-republics are inextricably linked.

>>11965019
>you would be a winner, and have no need for State violence to equalize thing for you.
>fairness and the tendency towards it is just resentment
nah

>>11965386
Marx was more ambivalent on the question of authority and democracy.

>>11965435
I only know of Bordigists who oppose democracy, most other branches of Communism at least pretend to use the People's Will as justification. This is a sham of course, as educational and media institutions shape the popular will. Better to be honest about it and promote a good moral system. Dishonestly (lack of formalism) about the power structure is the principal evil of marxism, liberalism, and libertarianism.

>>11965506
Bordigists are fucking scum. What I meant was that marx admitted the possibility of communism coming about in a dictatorship contrasted to democracy in the 1844 manuscripts.

I honestly don't think the USSR and co suffered from a lack of formalism, that's a critique better suited for anarchist circles. That it was dishonest, doesn't make it informal.

>>11965528
I'm pretty far from anarchism, so I don't think it's a bad thing that the USSR became a dictatorship, the alternative was probably worse. Liberalism, Marxism, and libertarianism are all quasi-anarchistic as it is, and this is the big problem. We especially see this under liberal democracies where, since no one actually owns the state, it's reduced to an instrument for wealth extraction to be fought over. It places property prior to the state and rejects the obvious fact that corporations and markets are institutions created by the state for the purpose of allocating resources and allowing people to earn a living, leading to these parties causing a great deal of harm to the same institution that allows them to exist. Limited government, of course, prevents any reform on this front because that would be tyranny. This is, unfortunately, liberal democracy working as intended.

>>11965625
>pol-sci memespeak galore
kys

>>11965678
Libertarian spotted.

>>11958116
Makes sense to me.

Marx and Engels were some of the most intelligent economists the world has ever known. They applied philosophy and political economy to actually-existing reality, and the only rejection of their thought I have read on this board, or through commentary, or otherwise are either cliche buzzword rejections or historical inaccuracies about muh 20th century communism.

>>11965214
>Regardless, in the west, our main goal is to push the rate of profit down further.
I should stop here and call you an obvious retard but I'll be cordial. Why do you think your plan is a good thing? Fewer generalized incentives in the form of profit potential + reduced total creative output is not what you want if there are still problems to solve. Do you think that when the world becomes objectively worse because of your ideas put into practice, that you can somehow reverse things with more of the same? Seriously, how do you not see this as equivalent to shooting yourself in the leg in the hopes that you can learn to walk better than before?

>>11957921

>everything in society (cultural values, religious beliefs, arts, religion) is a product of the core economic system
>the economic system is a product of who controls the means of economic production
>History is a struggle between different groups for control of those resources.
>Economic divisions and a struggle for power and control of those resources within a society leads to a class system to maintain the order
>This division of class systems itself leads to more struggle as the classes fight for control, take control, then imperfections with their order cause new class systems to emerge that struggle and keep the dialectical process moving
>History is eventually leading towards a perfect time when these class divisions and the struggle is resolved—a communist utopia.

>>11965745
This is a good thing because the automation and increases in organic capital composition involved increase productivity and the efficiency of production. These things make the world objectively better. That profit incentive becomes increasingly incompatible with this situation is not good for capitalism.

>>11965742
There are practically no Marxist models used in economics today aside from like, professors at UMass Amherst or the New School or a few other "Marxist" departments.
>but muh bourgeois conspiracy to keep the Marxists down
Why are there so many Marxists in every other social science department then? Clearly the bourgeoisie isn't all that afraid of them. In fact, they were in many cases on the payroll of the bourgeoisie, see: 68er movements.

>business and finance
>"hurr durr muh ohpwessive capitlizm, muh classism"
You faggots are a fucking joke.

If the labor theory of value is right how do you explain crypto?

>>11965362
you're all thiefs and murderers for example, either directly or indirectly

Imagine unironically being a commie spic

>>11965802
The simple fact is that the bourgeois literally only care about the economic aspect. They don't care what happens culturally. Wokeness is easy to pander to, it doesn't hurt the bottom line.

>>11965776
>word salad except
>These things make the world objectively better.
This has not happened in practice, why do you think 'it will be different this time?'

Imagine unironically reading this thread

>>11965843
...I'm literally talking about economic development under capitalism retard.

>>11965842
They care a great deal about what happens culturally. Every woke movement was a conscious liberal-bourgeois creation used for the purposes of gaining more power, it didn't just spring up out of nowhere.

>>11965854
So you're a capitalist who wants to inflict inefficiency on the situation in order that 'innovation' happens more rapidly?

>>11957921
labor theory of value
he thinks workers are doing all the labor, so they are entitled to the products of it, not the management or shareholders who basically just order people around and sing things.

>>11965943
*sign

>>11965896
The word you're looking for is accelerationist.

>>11965943
Management and bookkeeping are necessary forms of labor.

Marx is not "fuck you daaaaad, and fuck you steve the assistant manager at the Wendy's I work at!!!!"

Labor extraction is literally just shit like the stock market, banking and anywhere else where "I own a piece of this so you owe me money" applies

>>11957972
So he was an antifeudalist, but his ideas were...elaborated upon?

>all these kneejerk reactions to communism

Holy fuck /pol/ is mad

>>11966065
>business board hates abolition of business

Must be pol desu

>>11966073

You'd think after losing all their shitcoin worth /biz/ would be fed up at this point. Notice all the commie posts lately. Most people also don't want to work on this board to make money.

>>11966036
He does make a distinction between productive and unproductive labor, but it's not the same thing as labor and capital obviously.

>>11965966
lel you guys don't realize that there is no end to the process?

>>11966228
then you have nothing to be afraid of ;)

>>11966245
>needless turmoil and unrest caused by the eternal lazy feminine
>nothing to fear
Instead of being creative yourselves, you want to put truly productive people under duress to fulfill your power fantasies. You are yet more proof that 'marxists' merely project their infantile perspective onto so-called exploitative capitalism.

>>11961433
solid socialist ass fucking there anon. based and redpilled

>>11966312
>he had to scour the entire thread in-and-out for any sort of validation because non-marxists got so thoroughly destroyed

>>11966300
I don't think you've understood much of what i've said anon. The acceleration of development in this fasion occurs under capitalism via class warfare, the truly productive ppl here are getting shorter work days, better real wages and benefits out of this deal.

If you're right, and this acceleration can really go on for ever under capitalism, then you have no reason to fear the ebil gommie regime coming for your grain reserves.

>>11966382
It's sad that once I've identified what you're like, you affect cool academic distance from the entailments of your position. At this point it's just a word game and you're being disingenuous.

>>11965148
>spic
>diversity hire
>comes to america from shithole country
>tries to turn america into shithole country

yeah, shit like this convinces me that bornw people need to be wiped out. you're both worthless and useless. you're a parasite off White men, and you'll never be anything more

>>11966592
>once I've identified what you're like
Then skipped dealing with what was said. Literal sidestepping and knee-jerk reactions

I have always found Marxism to be boring and simplistic. It doesn't take into account the animal greed of humans and industrial Europe of the 19th century has fucking nothing to do with a world where your labor competes against McDonalds robot cashiers.

>>11966339
all of your posts are condescending bullshit. you're a basement dweller. makes me happy that no one will ever take you seriously

>>11958238
lol, fucking classcucks unironically defending capitalism.

>>11958418
were you alive back in 2008? remember when the banks fucked everyones money and then got trillion gibs from the taxpayers they fucked over?

>>11957921
The problem of Marxism is that labour theory of value is inherently flawed.

If person A and person B make identical widgets but person B expends 20% more labour time during manufacturing, does that mean person B's widgets are worth more? No, that's nonsense.

>>11966036

Why are the only countries that aren't impossibly fucked up also the countries with functioning banking and stock markets? America will definitely fail, and it will be because of the debts created by statists persuring utterly labor and capital destroying pursuits such as trying to force equal outcomes between Latinos and whites even though they have different average IQs and it is impossible. America literally wastes 1 trillion dollars a year (and growing) in public education and scores drop every year as more and more 3rd world refuse takes up seats.

>>11966165

The only thing that ultimately determines the value or productivity of labor is the market. Anbody that thinks a person or organization or government has enough information to make those distinctions doesn't know what hubris is or why they are full of it. Every attempt of price and wage control ultimately ends in failure. Always has, always will, because it is impossible to know what billions of people want, second by second, amid billions of circumstances. There are multiple trillions of economic decisions being made every day just in america. You don't know them even in small fraction. You cant sucessfully control the pieces anymore than you can control the cellular structure of your body.

The real redpill is that neither pure communism nor capitalism are desirable. Mixed market economies are the most prosperous and efficient.

>>11966621
My family literally lived in texas since before the mexican american war, america came to us, not the other way around.

What i dont understand is how commies can hate monopolies because of the "greed" of those who control them. But in a commie society the state is the biggest monopoly, so basically, you trade a set of individuals controlling the wealth, to another set of individuals controlling the wealth, the difference is that the latter is the one who makes the fucking laws

>inb4 b-but the government is responsible for the wellbeing of the people, so there is NO way that the individuals in power will take advantage of having power and wealth for their own greed!!11

See, this is why i fucking hate commies, they have this image that all buisnessman are full of greed and corruption and that the people in the government is this perfect non greedy entity that has no other agenda but to serve the people. This is why every single fucking self proclaimed communist state has failed, because people no matter in what position they are in will always try to get the most out of it, communism basically allows people in the government to own the wealth and the power, and its a solution proposed by power hungry people to fool the lower class into thinking they are somewhat going to change their living standards by stealing from the rich. Pathetic

>>11966639
Marx's theory is predicated on increasing automation and relies on standard classical models of competition.

>>11966751
Yeah, that would be a problem with LTV if that was in anyway shape or form what it predicted. The value of a commodity isn't determined by just the labor amount of time taken to make /that specific commodity/, rather marx is talking about the market price for a commodity which exists beyond any individual product and is informed by socially necessary labor. That is, the average amount of time a normal worker would take to make the thing with the tools available. This means if a labor saving technique is introduced to production, the price of all the commodities goes down regardless of whether that technique was used or not.

>>11966798
Use markets or market simulations, I frankly don't care. Even Marx's predictions of the abolition of commodity production and exchange are predicated on total monopolization of production and distribution, which hasn't happened and is therefor irrelevant.

>>11966952
Monopolies are generally formed by real economies of scale and tend to be rather efficient businesses, except consumers cannot benefit form these efficiencies because of the market power of these businesses. The best solution is to socialize them, you keep the efficiency of the economy of scale and you decrease the price according to costs.

I think most communists have little illusions about people in state power. This frankly isn't a matter of virtue. It is an empirical fact that decommodification of basic necessities greatly increased the living standard of the poor in the USSR, especially when compared to the poor in america in the post war period.

>>11966954
>marx is talking about the market price for a commodity which exists beyond any individual product and is informed by socially necessary labor.
Nope, Marx says nothing about LTV being derived from market prices. LTV means that the value of a commodity is predicated on the average amount of labour is required to produce it.

LTV is retarded and nonsensical and produces contradictions everywhere.

>>11967151
Exchange value is found by taking the long run average (i.e. equilibrium) price ratio. This is what marx predicts is determined by the amount of socially necessary labor time involved.

And he is empirically correct btw, here's a list of links to studies on the topic. https://pastebin.com/YT6NUUAX

>>11967151
why the fuck are you such a lying cuck, op is right about marx.

>>11967008

See, your statement on Monopoly are straight false. No monopoly in the private sector has ever been achieved, and in the circumstances where they have come closest (standard oil), got there with high quality low cost products. Anti-trust suits were not brought by politicians on behalf of the people, they were brought by standard oil's competition who didn't like slim profit margins. The only Monopolies ever achieved are those of the state, not through competition but violence. This is where eficiency, waste and injustice is the norm. Private sector near-monopolies are self defeating, they end up becoming slow to react, overburdened with bureaucracy, corrupt and unable to fend off smaller competitors with new innovations from gaining share. The only way they CAN become a monopoly is to use the state (violence) to enforce a Monopoly for them.

>>11957921
Karl Marx was inspired by the principles of satanism, and communism and his works were simply a conduit to get these principles to the common man.

>>11967595
you're thinking christianity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_the_Just

>>11967595
Mark 10:25

>>11967595
>muh satanism

this the most classcuck cope I've ever seen

>>11967436
All private property and LLCs are supported by state violence, that's a moot point. That a company can own infrastructure like rail lines, telephone lines or pipelines can make them a monopoly quite easily. It's no coincidence that these are the things the state takes over pretty quickly or else people start getting mad over paying such exorbitant prices. But besides all that, International Harvester is a great example of what I was talking about. It had 85% market share and used that to inflate its prices. It had good products and, during this period, an efficient business model. But the benefits were not passed onto consumers because they had such market power. In this period, the best thing for the economy would have been to socialize the company.

The company was brought low by the great depression and degenerated, but that's besides the point. With measures like federal job guarantees, there's no political pressure to keep these businesses open when they're doing poorly. Sure, let them be subject to market forces, but let's have no illusions that company's do not use market power to get favorable prices.

But this necessity of socialization is even more pertinent today where we encounter authentically too big to fail businesses. We've come to a point in capitalism where market discipline simply isn't good enough. We need to supplant it with something else lest we loose discipline completely.

>>11967595
Based and redpilled.
>All Karl Marx really did was to update and codify the very same revolutionary plans and principles et down seventy years earlier by Adam Weishaupt, the founder of the Order of Illuminati in Bavaria. And, it is widely acknowledged by serious scholars of this subject that the League of Just Men was simply an extension of the Illuminati which was forced to go deep underground after it was exposed by a raid in 1786 conducted by the Bavarian Authorities.

>>11962301
> why fancy word grub not understand

>>11967708
Ignorants..

"One would almost imagine, that this degree, as I have managed it, is genuine Christianity, and that its end was to free the Jews from slavery. I say, that Freemasonry is concealed Christianity. My explanation of the hieroglyphics, at least, proceeds on this supposition; and as I explain things, no man need be ashamed of being a Christian." -Adam Weishaupt

"Jesus of Nazareth, the Grand Master of our order, appeared at a time when the world was in the utmost Disorder, and among a people who for ages had groaned under the yolk of Bondage. He taught them the lessons of reason. To be more effective, he took the aid of Religion--of opinions which were current--and in a very clever manner, he combined his secret doctrines with the popular religion, and with the customs which lay to his hand. In these he wrapped up his lessons --he taught by parables. Never did any prophet lead men so easily and so securely along the road to liberty. He concealed the precious meaning and consequences of his doctrines; but fully disclosed them to a chosen few. He speaks of a kingdom of the upright and faithful; His Father's kingdom, who's children we also are. Let us only take liberty and equality as the great aims of his doctrines, and Morality as the way to attain it, and everything in the New Testament will be comprehensible; and Jesus will appear as the Redeemer of slaves." - Adam Weishaupt

>>11967835
>Masonry is Christianity
>For both Marxists and Masons, however, different and opposed they may be politically, are at one in locating all of man's hopes and happiness in this wordly setting, without any intervention of a divine action from outside this cosmos and without appointing an otherworldly life as the goal of all human life and endeavor.

>>11967892
Masonry was turned jewish (it wasnt) and christianity is jewish. Marxism is jewish, its goal is, as the League of the Just described: "the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth, based on the ideals of love of one's neighbor, equality and justice".
This is rabbi talk what they mean is a rule of jews with an iron rod, over the goy cattle. Weishaupt was a jew, marx was a jew.

>>11967937
Christianity and Judaism are entirely distinct religions and in many ways anithetical, especially when looking at the Kabbalah, which I'm sure you know influenced Masonry. Weishaupt was just using the name of Christianity to get people on his side. I completely agree with your final point though.

>>11967975
you do realize Masonry didnt accept jews until the late XVIII century? It was then that it was infected with kabbalah crap

>>11968003
The point is that Weishaupt was using Masonry as a vehicle for his Illuminist conspiracy, and Masonry was absolutely not Christian as long as they supported Weishaupt.

>>11968066
Yes and his Illuminist conspiracy in its final form -> Communism/Exoteric Judaism
My point is Judaism != Satanism, which is what your kind think. I know how you people think. You've been had. Christianity is NOT against jews despite whatever mindfuck the bible got you believing.

>>11968147
I don't think Judaism is Satanism. The conspiracy is technocracy, which I think you would agree. That technocracy, however, would still be founded on Luciferian principles.

>>11968219
Describe these Luciferian principles. Better still, describe the word 'Lucifer'

>>11957921
Real jews like myself are hardcore capitalists. It's by far the best economic model for anyone who is remotely good at managing their finances.

>>11968256
Rather than God creating the universe, the universe is creating God and that man is himself god and therefore unaccountable to a higher power.

>>11967008
>The best solution is to socialize them, you keep the efficiency of the economy of scale and you decrease the price according to costs.

Well, the postal service is socialized, but the shipping costs aren't drastically cheaper than services like FedEx or UPS nor or its postal workers treated any better.

Socialized medicine isn't all rainbows either. If you've ever been to the emergency room in the US for a serious problem, you would know what I mean. There aren't enough doctors, especially competent doctors, and often times your medical condition will often get a lot worse before the doctors even notice it. Medical services don't scale up just by throwing money at it because you need competent people to provide those services.

Education is another area that doesn't benefit from just by having more public money thrown into it. Public educaton is bad, but often times it's not because the teachers are bad. It's because many students don't take education seriously. The State has effectively monopolized education, but the cost of education had only gone up. They haven't made more universities or schools even though the population had increased. There's a racket between professors and publishers that give them kickbacks for using unnecessarily expensive books for their courses and those books get new editions every year with little changes to the content.

Public works is another area that sucks. Road construction and maintenance is frequently done at exorbitant costs. The government often doesn't aim for low cost and quality. They more frequently award contracts based on connections. When there are huge cost overruns, the government just go along with it. They simply pass the additional costs to the public. Many such workers are obligated to work slowly because of their unions. They would take a ridiculous amount of time to finish even simple tasks.

This is not public money well spent.

>>11966954
I would have thought a tejano would be more likely libertarian or for seceding at least.
t. castizo who has lived in texas for all my life, but literally don't get why you'd throw it away to be a communist

>>11968289
So you base your entire opposition to marxism on religious grounds? Do you know what Lucifer means?

>>11968286
you dont fool anyone jew, you'd love communism if you were one of the few in power

>>11968312
I'm just using Luciferian to mean a revolt against God. You say religious grounds as though it isn't a rational position. At this point we are contrasting metaphysical doctrines and the difference is that, in Marxism, you cannot have a coherent worldview without handwaving away enormous incoherences, such as its endorsement of Darwinism.

>>11968366
It is a rational position, but in your case, although understandable, a wrong one. See what you call God is what ((they)) call God too. When you think 'Kingdom of Heaven' and imagine paradise, ((they)) are thinking mass slaughter of goyim.
>the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth
So its precisely NOT a revolt, but the fulfilling of prophecy. It is establishing what they wanted all along. Thats not a revolt, thats everything going according to plan. But you need to understand what Christianity really means to see this.

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." Revelation 22:16

"But those mine enemies that would not that I should reign over them, bring hither and slay them before me." Luke 19:27

"The Lord has made everything for his own ends, even the wicked for the evil day." Proverbs 16:4

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads." Revelation 22: 3-4

Labor theory of value is the basis for, and deepest flaw, in his economic theory. There was an idea kicking around academic circles of the time that there could be calculated a "natural" or true value of something. Even Adam Smith attempted to come up with a sound theory for this idea. Marx and Proudhon basically came to theorize that the true value of something was based on the expense of materials and the amount of time it took to create something. So if a poet took 30 years to write an epic society bore a collective debt to this person to the tune of the time and expense in materials it took for this person write this epic.
--
There existed also the idea that the capitalist would steal the excess value of the workers labor by taking the profits from the enterprise at hand. Say paying the laborer a wage to produce a widget and then selling the widget for more than you paid in materials and labor to produce it. Marx and the radical egalitarians that would follow figured this later profit should be considered theft. It is a dubious proposition to suggest that you, as the laborer, would have any right to the profitable sale of materials that I posses a title for and paid you to labor over with tools provided to you by me.
--
You know almost intrinsically that that the labor theory of value cannot be true because you can labor tirelessly and endlessly at something and never produce anything anyone cares to buy from you. Value is subjective and prices are ratios of goods vis a vis other goods in the market expressed in the monetary unit. Mises countered this argument thoroughly between the world wars. He also went on rebuke the so called theft of excess value produced by explaining the nature of capital investment and time preference ie the worker wants a wage now, but the capitalist is willing to wait for a return later hence interest rates.

>>11968619
decent rebuttal, but you're still scum like the commies

>>11968619
Good post, Marxists that come to shitpost here still make this arguement which is so tiresome.

>thinking biz has the intelligence yet alone the attention span to read more than a chapter or two of Capital

>>11962278
no person has ever set foot in a communist country because no communist country has ever existed. only 1/5 of the countries you listed are even socialist

>>11968874
>I-it wasn't real communism
like clockwork

>>11968619
>you can labor tirelessly at something and never produce anything anyone cares to buy from you
>what is use value

>>11968874

kek, and there it is. commie retard.

>>11957972
>Karl Marx said "Karl Marx is not a Marxist."
This isn't true.

>>11957921
Marx had brillant analytical skill

If you want to learn something about the world, read his full unaltered works.

Ignore the normative ideas, focus on the analysis.

Combine his reading of the world with Murray Rothbard's and Edmund Burke.

>>11958049
LBOT is one of his least interesting "result" and also notably wrong. The Austrian school provides much more compelling argument on the nature of value, something that is in fact subjective and always determined by coordination mechanisms (whether you call it a market or not).

>>11965148
Kek this faggot is worse than a revolutionary,he's a literal cuck.
>wants to be taxed more
>wants other people to have his shit
>self sacrifice for "greater good"
The system can god damn well take care of itself. Your moral parsimony is just a way for you to avoid personal responsibility to your close friends and family by serving some ghostly ideal. Read some Steiner, some Foucault, some Baudrillard. And wake the fuck up to the fact that the alt right is far ahead of you ideologically, its leaders are using the system for their own benefit exactly as it should be while the MAGA idiots fall in line, just like you commies.

marx's father was ashamed of him and his kid committed suicide. thought up by a loser, for losers.

Ok. Honest talk here. Obviously socialism doesn't work. Capitalism seems to be a non-sustainable gravitation of money and power towards the few that have the most of both of those. So.... what's the answer? Is there a third option?

>>11970112
Stop worrying about things you can't control. Study the system so you can manipulate it for your own benefit.

By the way, this is not a joke.

Anyone randomly bringing up "Jews" in a thread talking about socioeconomics is quite literally some guy working for the government.

How do I know this? Just trust me.

>>11970120
That won't help if the system is destined for collapse though...

>>11957921
some people talk about how if they had a time machine they'd go back and kill Hitler, but my first target would unironically be Karl Marx.

Maybe that helps clear things up for you.

>>11957921

4 LEGS GOOD
2 LEGS BAD

>>11957921
>Need a crisp elucidation of Marxs ideas.

I think capitalism works perfectly, but the stock market fucked it all up.
>go public with your company for funding
>oh shit, these investors expect a return
>ok well, we need to grow by x amount every quarter so our stock will grow so our investors make a profit
>ok so we'll make completely irrational decisions because we need to keep growing by 25% each quarter or we'll lose investors
>successful company becomes a shit leech company
>everyone stops using them because of their awful tactics of trying to make profit and not provide value to the customers
>company goes bankrupt
>rinse and repeat
See? Stock market fucked everything up.

>>11970134
Christians have been waiting for the apocalypse for 2k years. Everyone else has been waiting for 10k years. Your wet dream movie fantasy ain't going to happen, bud. The world is really fucking big and life is extremely fucking into fucking. Maybe you'll due, but you aren't going to stop that through collective action whether its NS, Com, Anarchist, capitalist, or whatever else your weak mind has been brainwashed into believing

>>11970224
>capitalist
Brainwashed into believing capitalism? Whatever you say, commie.

>>11969217
You don't learn about the world by reading philosophical works and assume everything written in them are true. It's just as a blind man following the blind.

>>11970242
Your information contamination is showing.
The opposite of a capitalist is a socialist.
The opposite of a fascist is a communist.
The opposite of opposites rejects and accepts for the benefit of my own power, choosing one then the other then neither.
You are a weakling who can't stomach even the slightest truth. Here's one for you: you're already dead and in Hell.

>>11970265
>The opposite of a fascist is a communist.
lolno
You can most definitely be a communist and a fascist.

>>11968874

>>11970265
Better not ask how or why or to define those concepts because you're about to get BTFO

>>11970134
>So.... what's the answer? Is there a third option?
People will adapt to their environnement and pragmatically come with new things.

To give you some insight, politics used to be something practical with very little ideology in it before the french revolution, what dominated the mind of people in terms of beliefs was not politics, it was religion. Only since this era systems of governance became ideologies, before that society organized organically and what was important was living in accordance to christian teachings, not optimizing society based on material imperatives.
Since religion is in decline some people are compensating by adopting zealous/fanatical beliefs in politics, that's why leftists have such a cult like/emotional behaviour and deep ego investment.

The only thing you have to understand in our era about politics is that the average modern leftist is someone with low self esteem who internalized powerlessness and victimhood as an identity while leftist leader are narcissistic sociopaths thinking they are entitled to the ressources and respect of others. It's basically a mix of mentally ill people mixed with predatory personalities.

Take care of yourself and of your family, do what's in their best interests and yours, try to be better, that's the only sane and natural way of living your life, don't fall for ideological orthodoxy.

>>11970404
I'm not sure how your post answers the question though. I'm not really interested in what dominates the minds of the people, I'm more interested in what economic model the world can possibly support.

I guess it doesn't matter. I'll take your advice. Thanks, fren. Godspeed.

>>11958462
I don't want to get destroyed by the US government.

Communism is terrible even in theory. Did they even read the white paper before they implemented it?

>>11957972
This guy doesn't understand crypto

>>11970491
None of us do, buddy. That's why they decided to tax it and not abolish it. We're all friends here, it's a win win!