/biz/ - Business & Finance

With something like Bitcoin, there is no legal requirement for somebody to accept it to settle a debt. So where does its value come from? Its value comes from HYPE and SPECULATION, and that is IT. Hence why it is so volatile. And why it will probably lose all of its value entirely in a few years time, as the fad dies away. That's all it is. A fad. A fad with no value whatsoever.

If you want to invest in an asset which is independent of central banks and whatever, why don't you invest in commodities? They have inherent value. Sure, the price of gold fluctuates, but it has had value to many people for centuries as a rare metal, and for jewellery (and these days for use in electronics too). Or why not invest in property? People always need somewhere to live, right?

So my question is this: why are you wasting your money investing in something like Bitcoin (or any other crypto) which has no inherent value whatsoever? You're basically just hoping that you can convince other gullible losers to buy your BTC off you for a higher price.

because companies can use smart contracts to enhance security and save millions by delegating tasks away from middle men and attaching data to the blockchain using decentralized oracle networks such as Chainlink

>>11910644
Nice FUD, Morgan Stanley. The bottom is in lads

Value of crypto comes from the same source as fiat, number of users. Only difference is fiat has a constant number of users because its obligatory in a certain territory. But does that mean cripto has no value? No, it means it has no bottom, but it may never reach its bottom, because its possible for it to surpass fiat number if users, if it become more convenient than fiat. Think about it, why facebook has value if the product can be copied easily? Same reason as cripto, number of users, and how hard its users gonna give up using it

Because it's extremely volatile and the market attracts a lot of idiots due to the lamboland stories, so being at the right place at the right time or a good scam can net absolutely comical amounts of profit in an extremely short time frame. There's a reason why 99% of crypto discussion is about the magic shitcoin/USD ratio, even the COIN X HAS LEGIT INDUSTRY USE hype is invariably centered around how much the value is going to rise.

>>11910673
>>11910684
Like I said I'm not an economist and I don't know much about crypto so I'm not understand lots of the terms you're using here.

>because companies can use smart contracts to enhance security and save millions by delegating tasks away from middle men and attaching data to the blockchain using decentralized oracle networks such as Chainlink
...how does this give value to crypto like BTC etc.? Do you honestly believe that BTC and other cryptocurrencies have a future as widespread, stable financial instruments? I seriously fucking doubt it.

>Nice FUD, Morgan Stanley. The bottom is in lads
I had to google FUD but I get it now. But what is "the bottom"?

>>11910744
Value of crypto comes from the same source as fiat, number of users. Only difference is fiat has a constant number of users because its obligatory in a certain territory. But does that mean cripto has no value? No, it means it has no bottom, but it may never reach its bottom, because its possible for it to surpass fiat number if users, if it become more convenient than fiat. Think about it, why facebook has value if the product can be copied easily? Same reason as cripto, number of users, and how hard its users gonna give up using it

>>11910744
>what is "the bottom"
By the sounds of it, you're the bottom and every other faggot in Christendom is the top

>>11910715
>>11910801
>its possible for it to surpass fiat number if users, if it become more convenient than fiat
But that will literally never happen if it has no legal status. People will use the currency which has legal status because it is safe.

>>11910735
This is EXACTLY my point. The sole value of crypto comes from HYPE and trying to scam people by convincing them that this worthless asset is worth something.

You're right, it is possible to gain comical amounts of profit, if you're in the VERY VERY SMALL number of people who happen to invest in one of these stupid things early, and then the thing you've invested in happens to gain hype. But you may as well just play the lottery, or go to a casino, right? In each case, your chances of striking it rich are absolutely tiny.

>>11910816
I should have known that I'd find just as much garbage on this board as any other.

>>11910640
>The reason that legal tender (USD, GBP, EUR, JPY, etc.) has value is because, legally, it HAS to be accepted for the payment of debts.


So what happens when they inflate the supply of it?

>>11910640
> legally, it HAS to be accepted for the payment of debts
Then think for a second little brain guy, just a second. What would happen if everybody had a bitcoin wallet, and to settle a debt in $, Alice would send her Bitcoin Bob routing them to a market maker turning the btc to $, then as soon as bob has the $, he liquidates it for Bitcoin. Imagine if every body did this (which is not hard, given the development on financial technologies like interledger), do you think your shitty normie uneducated low IQ argument would hold ?

>>11910644
> So where does its value come from? Its value comes from HYPE and SPECULATION, and that is IT.
False. While a lot of the value does come from hype and speculation, it does serve a purpose. It's a good alternative to currency that can be used globally. It can be used to buy products, drugs, prostitutes, etc. It has a purpose. Not to mention that it's not taxable (until you decide to "cash out").

>>11910644
Can I cross the border with 12 million worth of gold hidden in my head, and liquidate them on the black market / dark net as soon as I'm in the other country ? I don't think so kid

>>11910744
>how does this give value to crypto like BTC
It doesn't. BTC and all it's forks are nothing but giant ponzis that are blatantly manipulated by a handful of billionaires. Almost all public blockchains/"dapp platforms" are just meme shitcoin dispensers will never be used by any real company. Chainlink is the only public project worth anything since it's blockchain agnostic and works with hyperledger and private chains that actually are being used.

>>11910829
You really dont know anything about cryptocurrency, do you? You should really research something before claiming it's useless or has no value.
Bitcoin and many other cryptocurrencies derive value from their mining algorithms that make them difficult to create or obtain. Bitcoin is 'deflationary' currency in that only a fixed amount, 21 million, will ever be created. New bitcoin is minted when a miner computes a block by finding the nonce that creates the hash with the correct amount of leading zeros. It gets more difficult the more people mining to keep the minting rate constant. That's what gives it value. It's also trustless decentralized currency, meaning that you dont have to trust any more than 51% of the miners in the system to process valid transactions. There's no trusting a central bank or federation that could print money or ban accounts at will. It's also electronic and programmable. There are many uses for deflationary, decentralized, electronic programmable currency - I'm sure you can think of some.

>>11910640
>The reason that legal tender (USD, GBP, EUR, JPY, etc.) has value is because, legally, it HAS to be accepted for the payment of debts

How do you plan sending that money to somebody on another continent if you don't have a bank account?

Just asking.

PS:Sage

>>11910801
The value of fiat comes from the country that backs it.

>>11910972
>Bitcoin and many other cryptocurrencies derive value from their mining algorithms that make them difficult to create or obtain
Wrong.

>>11910999
>The value of fiat comes from the country that backs it
The value of fiat comes from its demand, and its demand comes from the fact that the country forces everyone to use its fiat.

>>11910999
Thats no deep enough. The country doesnt actually back with metal or something, it just force people to use it in commerce by law and forces its use in taxes payment, and when people use it, it becomes related to the GDP of the country. Thats why if a country GDP loses value, the currency loses too. So again, fiat is backed by the number of users (number of tax payers).

>>11910842
They try not to. E.g. for the Bank of England, the target inflation rate is 2%, and if inflation is under or over this rate by more than 1%, then the Governor of the Bank of England (equivalent to Chair of the Fed in the US) has to write to the Chancellor of the Exchequer (equivalent to the Secretary of the Treasury in the US, I think) and explain why inflation has failed to meet its target, and what the Bank of England will do to remedy the situation.

Crypto like BTC has no such protections.

>>11910876
>What would happen if everybody had a bitcoin wallet
That will literally never happen. Hahahaha I can't believe you weirdos believe that this would ever happen hahahahaha.

>would your argument still hold?
Yes it would. Even if every citizen had a BTC wallet (which will never happen), BTC is still not legal tender. USD is legal tender, so is EUR and other currencies, depending on the territory of course.

Hahahahaha you're so dumb.

>>11910899
>It can be used to buy products, drugs, prostitutes, etc
Only if the vendor is willing to accept such a volatile "currency". Surely they'd rather be paid in cold, hard cash?

>>11910900
You can trade gold legitimately between countries, yes. Of course you can.

Why the hell would you invest in something like BTC which is so volatile? If you invested in it two weeks ago, then already you've lost 40% of what you invested in it. Why would you do that to yourself? Are you stupid?

>>11910972
>deflationary
>difficult to obtain
Imagine still thinking this in 2018. Bitcoin is open source computer code has been forked 4 fucking times just in the past year. It is the most inflationary "currency" on earth.

>>11911022
You can't force people to use something that is worthless. People want to use fiat. The best right now is the USD because it is stable and it is stable because US has lots of valuable businesses and industry. It's backed by the country itself.

No one uses shitcoins because they are volatile and it's volatile because ut's just hoarded and not used.

>>11911048
>Only if the vendor is willing to accept such a volatile "currency". Surely they'd rather be paid in cold, hard cash?
Maybe but that's personal preference. We're talking about the actual value of it and there is value to it. The same can be said about gold, silver, diamonds, and whatever that isn't cash but holds value.
That and you don't need to launder crypto or worry about the IRS auditing your BTC wallet. There's always that risk when you're involved in black market like trades and other degenerate practices.

>>11911048
>That will literally never happen
I don't fucking care what you think. Use logic, the simple fact that it could happen destroys your argument. It's all about imagining a model where your argument is wrong, so to prove that your argument doesn't hold in this model, and thus is false. Get back to school

>You can trade gold legitimately between countries, yes. Of course you can.

I'm talking about black market, good luck fleeing your failing country with your gold in your car kid

> volatile
What is a new asset class ? What is "volatility has been decreasing" ?

>>11911083
>You can't force people to use something that is worthless
Something is worth because people use it, get fucked with your circular argumentation. When euro was created, it was worthless until we threw it in the throat of every eu citizen.
I never said USD was bad

"scarcity" is just as arbitrary as confidence as value

>>11911113
>Something is worth because people use it
That would make bitcoin next to worthless.

>>11911122
Using it doesn't mean spending it in shops genius. That means adopting it, holding it, adding it to its portfolio, spending it, whatever

>>11911048
>Crypto like BTC has no such protections.

You're right, except for being wrong on every point. The whole philosophy of BTC is that no human should have the power to inflate currency. Do you trust the BOE to act in good faith and repsonsible monetary policy? What is my recourse if I don't?

There can never be more than 21 million BTC, and the amount of BTC that are released into circulation is hard-coded into the protocol, is able to be audited, and cannot be changed by anyone.

It's valuable because it gives people a choice. And it moves across borders with much greater ease than cash or gold.

>>11910965
Exactly. The whole thing is a gigantic meme. Anyone who gives this thing more than five seconds of their attention is fucking stupid, to be honest.

>>11910972
>You really dont know anything about cryptocurrency, do you?
I already said in the first two posts that I don't. Can you not read? I guess this level of stupidity is to be expected from the sort of moron who would believe that crypto has any value.

>nonce
Lmao. You're a nonce mate.

>Bitcoin and many other cryptocurrencies derive value from their mining algorithms that make them difficult to create or obtain. Bitcoin is 'deflationary' currency in that only a fixed amount, 21 million, will ever be created. New bitcoin is minted when a miner computes a block by finding the nonce that creates the hash with the correct amount of leading zeros. It gets more difficult the more people mining to keep the minting rate constant. That's what gives it value.
So basically Bitcoin is a bunch of a pointless mathematical bullshit that nobody cares about. And that's why it has literally ZERO inherent value whatsoever. What can the man on the street do with some stupid sums and numbers? He might be interested in these stupid sums and numbers if he can buy food with them - but that depends on a vendor accepting them as payment. And most businesses don't, because BTC is hugely volatile, because it doesn't have any inherent value. Banknotes and coins of legal tender obviously don't have much of an inherent value in themselves - but they derive value because they are legally enshrined as being admissible for the settlement of all debts.

>>11911133
Deflationary currencies tend to lead to very nasty politics

>>11910981
>How do you plan sending that money to somebody on another continent if you don't have a bank account?
You get a bank account, obviously. Or you use PayPal, if you want. Or you use a service like Western Union, which is incredibly popular - although maybe they require a bank account? I don't know. But then go back to my first point - open a bank account, you fucking moron.

>Sage
Hahahahahaha I've made this little runt SEETHE so much because I insulted his pet project. HAHAHAHAHAHA! You know that announcing sages is a bannable offence, right?

>>11911131
A currency's only use is a medium of exchange. Bitcoin is shit at that because it's so volatile, and it's so volatile because everyone is using it as some sort of get rich quick scheme.

>>11911149
And central banks don't?

>>11911200
Abolishing Bretton Woods only started one of the greatest golden ages in human history...

>11910640
>I’m I I’ve I I my My I’m I my I my I I me me my I
No (you)

>>11911133
>There can never be more than 21 million BTC
Holy shit, you're kidding, right? Why not?
Because they promised?

>>11910644
People sell drugs through the mail and accept bitcoin, that's the only value, also hackers use it to be paid ransoms

>>11911048
>the target inflation rate is 2%
and that's why it's a fucking scam, people don't want any inflation. And don't start with your "its good for the economy" BS, if people had a choice to use a currency with 0 inflation they would use that, that's why bitcoin is gaining more believers and die hard holders with each cycle.
You are a typical NPC who thinks that inflation is good and natural and we should all take fucking mortgages and be slaves until we have a heart attack at 65

volatility will decrease(and is decreasing) with age.

A currency that can be used across the globe. Not inflating due to the whims and desires of countries or any actors without the support of the majority. Nobody can physically rob it in the way that gold can(obviously smacking your teeth out with a wrench would probably be effective).

At least that was the idea. With how centralized bitcoin has become due to asic mining/gigantic mining farms, with a single entity dictating its development(effectively halting it for the past few years(blockstream)) people should ask themselves what the point of bitcoin in particular was/is and what the best alternative to this would be(SV/ABC/whatever the fuck are all gigantic shitcoins).

Blockchain technology itself has good real world usecases so even if bitcoin fails there will be some projects in this space that will succeed. Whether or not they have already been created is up in the air. The vast majority of alts are without a doubt gigantic pieces of shit though.

>>11911243
because it's immutable and decentralized unlike your bitcoin cash statoshi vision 14.0 shitfork or whatever else

>>11911075
no one cares about shitforks, the value comes from the network effect, security, decentralization and immutability, I can create a social media platform, doesn't mean facebook is gonna be worthless because of that

>>11911212
Purely coincidental. American's are certainly not better off.

>>11911243
yes

>>11911289
Well too bad fallacy of composition does not give a shit that individually having zero inflation makes you lose actual STUFF because if everyone would hoard money, nobody would be making shit.

>>11911342
Americans have massively benefitted
Why the fuck do you think you can afford everything at cheap ass prices?
The Chinese are literally selling you shit for pathetic amount of dollars, that they then buy treasure bills with, that have IR of like 1%
Free televisions basically

>>11911348
That's a fair point. Nobody wants to spend money if they believe that money is going to be worth more tomorrow. But it's not really a good argument for keeping your savings in inflationary currencies, either.

>>11911367
Well that is why we have index funds anyway
Basically you just want to beat inflation if you want to save money

>>11911348
so people would take their cash to the grave? you are a keynesian brainlet who overdosed on s.o.y, go buy a new iphone 17 or some anal balls, don't forget to take a loan for that and rent some shitbox till you die because your beloved government doesn't allow you any long term savings

>>11911361
.... for now. Assets have infated massively relative to wages, and we've completely fucked everyone but the paper pushers.There's only so long you can keep the printing presses running before people realize the farce that's been foisted upon them. We sold our future for cheap TV's.

>>11911390
>Well that is why we have index funds anyway
oh great I guess we can all invest in index funds and no one is gonna get affected by inflation. Doesn't that make inflation useless than?

>>11911367
No one keeps their savings in inflationary currencies. Rich people invest it in businesses, which they use your money to hopefully make money. Even if you have it sitting in a bank account the bank takes your money and INVESTS it. You will always make a little money from having money in the bank.

>>11911423
>You will always make a little money from having money in the bank.
way less than the inflation rate
it's literally theft

>>11911423
>Even if you have it sitting in a bank account the bank takes your money and INVESTS it

No, they loan it to other people, who deposit, and they loan that to people.

>>11910640
There really is no point. Crypto needs to die. When it does, /biz/ will become much more interesting. As of now it's like watching a bunch of retarded children debating how far an imaginary dragon could piss.

>>11911440
>/biz/ will become much more interesting
yea, bunch of wagecucks exchanging their wagecage experiences, something you probably know a lot about

>>11911307
>because it's immutable and decentralized
That means it can't be hacked either, right?

>>11911342
>yes
Well alrighty then

>>11911075

>>11911416
Passive investing could actually collapse markets in general if everyone did it, but it is kind of a grey area where horror scenarios take over any actual facts
I mean according to Hume it should lead to the death of all nations and shit
>>11911407
Banks should had never been bailed, but is not really related to fiat currencies.

>>11911467
>Passive investing could actually collapse markets in general if everyone did it, but it is kind of a grey area where horror scenarios take over any actual facts
>I mean according to Hume it should lead to the death of all nations and shit
yes, keep fearmongering the goyim that if their money isn't contantly devalued we are all gonna die through some magical butterfly effect.

>>11911463
>That means it can't be hacked either, right?
the risk of a 51% attack is a smaller threat than a bunch of kikes hyperinflating the shit out of your FIAT, which have happened many times in the past

>>11911506
you're retarded