/biz/ - Business & Finance

I don't know if its first in or last in
capital gains in 30% of profit
so if its first in you would owe 30% of our $4000 profit $1200
or if its last in you would owe 30% of your $0 profit $0

>>11837447
Are you taking the piss? We don't pay capital gains on crypto to crytpo trades in this country. Sort yourself out cunt.

All long term? held for more than a year?

>>11837447
You track every transaction from one currency to another. So from fiat to BTC, from BTC to BAT, every transaction tracked and reported including dates.
Then you report what your total fiat investment was and what your profit over that fiat was in total as of the last taxable transaction.

So if your last transaction was BTC to BAT and your initial investment was $1000 with your BTC's and BAT's converted fiat value being $5000 AT THE TIME OF THE TRANSACTION you would report $4000 capital gains profit as the transaction from BTC to BAT is considered a taxable event even though it didn't result in fiat.

Basically you have to keep tight records of your trades unless you're planning to try and dodge taxes and you should be careful about trading between cryptos because you get taxed even though the funds are still tied up in crypto rather than liquid fiat. Just make sure you have enough money aside to cover the tax on that $4000 profit or try to hide it (though I wouldn't recommend that, it's much harder to hide crypto profits now that the government is fully aware of crypto as a market).

>>11837509
>>11837509
If you're talking about Australia, yes we do.
You pay capital gains tax on crypto under the same rules as stocks here in australia.

>>11837517
but he bought a btc at 5k can't he use that one as the btc sold for bat?

>>11837517
>>11837529

Not in Australia dickhead. Go ask the ATO, even they admit they can't track exchange history. They just want you to pay capital gains when you cash out into fiat. I'd post the link but I'm a lazy cunt, and you're and even lazier cunt for not knowing in the first place.

>>11837539
you're in for a surprise

>>11837539
They can't track it does not mean it's not taxable.
It just means they can't track if for you and by not reporting it you are committing tax fraud.

>>11837539
the ATO site says it is taxable, crypto-to-crypto - though it shouldn't be but you're also correct.

The ATO wants you to self-report as they don't have the required tools, etc to get exchanges to comply for ur histories.

If you paid CGT on ur trades before you're a dumb cunt.

>>11837548
>>11837557
https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Gen/Tax-treatment-of-crypto-currencies-in-Australia---specifically-bitcoin/
>>11837565
This guy knows.

>>11837565
>>11837574
Not reporting a taxable event is called tax faud and you can go to jail for it.

>>11837580
to go to jail for it they have to prove it which they can't because they don't have the required tools to get exchanges to comply... did you even read my post?

>>11837589
they don't yet have the tools

>>11837600
Why do you think Binance moved to fucking Malta, they aren't sharing shit because it's suicide as a business model.

>>11837447
Why are you all so fucking retarded just sell it locally for cash

>>11837618
>Irs wont notice the new shiny bright lambo on your front yard

So the all in trades I made when I was swinging tens of thousands on shitcoins probably racked up a hefty tax bill?

>>11837624
Why the fuck would they unless you tell them about it

The ato website says that you have to tax crypto - crypto trades. So many of you committed tax evasion and you will pay. When they track your transactions on foreign exchanges using international data sharing agreements. Bittrex will hand over your data. Doesn't matter is its 10 years from now. They'll get you

>>11837741
but all the aussies got in late and will be claiming huge losses to bring down their tax threshold haha

>>11837741
>make mad gainz during the 2017 golden bullrun
>don't report my mad crypto gainz because ATO can't track
>lose all of my crypto gainz in market crash because too stupid to cash out
>10 years later ATO arrests me for massive tax evasion and puts me in jail for 10 more years for not reporting my gainz for the 2017 fiscal year because I lost it all in 2018

The ultimate JUSTening.

>>11837872
Lol, funny. Cryto to crypto is not taxable.

>>11837539
Crypto-to-crypto gains in Australia is a capital gains event mate. The profit on the trade is added to your other sources of taxable income.

Good Goys, pay your tax so when Mohammad's extended family comes in with a Labor government they don't have to work and can claim benefits.

>>11837988
His argument is that it isn't taxable because they can't track it. Basically "if they can't catch me then it's not illegal" is the argument.

>>11837741
>Use trustless exchange
>Gubmit can't force anyone to turn over user data because it's decentralised
>Keep my gains and only pay tax when I cash out

The reality is that there are so many easy ways to evade this tax that it's not feasibly enforceable, and that's not taking into account how the ATO is understaffed and can't even keep track of money in their own system. Only the gullible would willingly report their crypto-to-crypto trades so that the ATO can molest them through a bullshit law.

>>11838023
Lucky for some of us NEETs that otherwise earn nothing, we still earned below the tax threshold so only had to a non-lodgement. It's only the people that made the big bux or people who have another source of income like a job that need to worry about it.

>>11837988
>>11838023
It's not even that it's straight from the horses mouth;

"You’re correct that cryptocurrency is not a form of money/currency for tax purposes. Under existing legislation, cryptocurrency is considered to be a capital asset, and capital gains tax rules apply on the disposal of these assets. "

https://community.ato.gov.au/t5/Cryptocurrency/Capital-Gains-Tax-on-Crypto-currency/td-p/8576

>>11838170
>Under existing legislation, cryptocurrency is considered to be a capital asset, and capital gains tax rules apply on the disposal of these assets

Exactly, it's considered a capital asset and the capital gains tax rules apply. Disposal means exactly that, disposal. Whether that's through a trade for another asset, or selling it straight up for fiat.

And at the bottom of the ATO post on your link, they actually say this:

"Finally, ‘disposal’ occurs when you sell, gift or trade cryptocurrency - even if you don’t receive any money for it. When you swap one cryptocurrency for another, you’re considered to have disposed on one cryptocurrency and acquired a new one, which means that CGT applies. "

>>11838192
lol, fuck that. I'm going back to my earlier argument then that they cannot possibly ever even know about those trades. And furthermore, most of those occured on de-listed coins, or exchanges that no longer exist or hold records of said coin. So good luck to them I guess.

>>11838156
I have wallets on Indp Reserve, Binance and IDEX, at this time I wouldn't feel safe not disclosing capital gain even on IDEX.

what you do is cash out, leave the stinking shithole that is australia and the retards at the ato are none the wiser

t. former auscuck now living the aus dream

>>11838268
They can just ask the exchange.

>>11838316
Where are you living?

>>11838327
austria, but im a brit dual national and operate my finances in BVI

Ok if nobody can answer my question I'll ask on the ATO community boards. >>11837517 I don't think you read my question closely enough.

>>11838317
Yeah mate, no worries. I'm sure they will happily comply

>>11838327
>the aus dream

>>11838334
You are better off asking the ATO, but it depends on "which" bitcoin you traded. I think a lot of people just use the FIFO method (First in - First out). Basically, the BTC you got for $1000 is the BTC you traded for the BAT.

So you made a capital gain of $4000 when you disposed of the BTC (and traded it for BAT).

I'm not sure if you're allowed to choose the BC you got for $3000 in a "Last in first out" method to reduce your capital gains for tax purposes. You should ask someone at the ATO for sure.

>>11837447

>>11837639

in Australia the ATO (Australian tax office) uses AI to analyse aerial surveys of neighbourhoods and scan for high end cars, swimming pools, luxury goods, etc.

Then they compare the AI findings with government records and if someone living in a low income area has a BMW sitting in the drive they audit them.

I used to work in a big4 australian bank executing these searches.

The most fucked one was when they did the swimming pool sweep and went into peoples houses ripping out in ground pools and slapping people wiht $20k+ fines

another thing they do is use mobile phone signal networks to identify high concentrations of SIM card signals from one residential address. If a single detached houe has 10 simcards idling in it every day the govermnet rolls out there to investigate unlicensed sharehouses, cash only rent situations etc. its some real black mirror shit but thsi is west sydney 2018

>>11838488
more info bro? that was interesting as fuck.

>>11838488
What the fuck am I being taking on a ruse cruise right now

>>11838488
what drugs are you on. They would never rip out a poo, the would issue a tax notice, and go through the courts if you did not comply.

>>11838488
futher you don't need a licence for share house.

Boarding house yes

and overcrowding maybe

but share house no

>>11838626
I think subletting is illegal but I'd have to check to be sure

>>11838700
its on unlawful (not illegal) if your not allowed to do it in the lease.

Depends on the lease.

I you own the house then up to you

>>11838488
I don’t believe this at all. Work in Aus gov, people are way too retarded and lazy to do something so sophisticated and organised

>>11838626
>>11838700
>>11838722


you dont need a license for a share house. but cunts have 10 gooks living in there on cashs only, put the cash in their pocket and negative gear their house on a 100k income. Thats what teh ATO cares about

>>11838505

I wish

>>11838616

Sorry sir, the soil in your yard isnt suitable for a pool and you dont have compliant australian standard fencing. the unlicensed pool contractor you used cut a heap of corners and you dont have adequate filtering. your pump is chinese brand and not AS 123818 and needs to be replaced with one made in adelaide . you have 90 days to spend $50,000 rebuilding your pool or remove it completely, and you have a $20k fine on top

>>11838501

the most meme thing i had happen is a 19 year old chinese uni student show up at the bank with 25 kilograms of $50 notes. one $50 weighs 1.04 grammes. she deposits the funds and instantly buys a bank cheque for the $1.2 mil then never comes back.

The thing here is, when you get a mortgage for a house, you get a bank cheque that just says like "COMMONWEALTH BANK OF AUSTRALIA - $500,000" which you take to the real estate agent. Bank cheques dont have your name on them and clear to the general ledger which only has records retained for 3 months. all house purchase bank cheques clear on the same ledger so its extraordinarily difficult to trace these back after 3-4 months go buy.

this means some random gook running a cash only business in cabramatta can cash in via a uni student, then buy a house for cash and because the funds clearing never inovlves his name the bank is none the wiser. after all the property registry doesnt have the transaction recorded.

this happens every single week, thats just the most extreme example I saw.

>>11838735

https://www.nearmap.com.au/industries/government

Here is the aerial survey technology they use to do it. has automatic AI built in.

https://cloud.google.com/vision/ apply this as well.

They're just using 3rd party tech and paying a few people in canberra to organise it. AUSTRAC and ATO are not stupid government agencies by any measure.

>>11838794
>nearmap

Now that was a good investment

>>11837447
tax? just say you lose it all on binance, fake an spreadsheet and some screenshots and transfer all to another acc using xmr.

this is what i did last time.

>>11838735

Also, for years they've been using satellite photography to track farmers cutting down trees on their land without permission,

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-04/land-clearing-laws-tightened-as-farmers-fear-for-future/9722416

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/dec/20/queensland-farmer-fined-and-ordered-to-restore-cleared-native-vegetation

"But publicly available satellite imagery appears to show a long strip 60m wide was cleared right through an area that is subject to that EBPC referral. "

https://aic.gov.au/publications/rpp/rpp109/illegal-native-vegetation-clearing

"In recent years, relevant agencies have invested in, or are looking to invest in, satellite surveillance and aerial photography (Bartel 2005). Alongside more traditional survey work, satellite surveillance will improve mapping of existing vegetation and provide a more systematic method of monitoring clearance patterns. Queensland operates the Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) from which downloaded data fulfils monitoring obligations and is used to annually update the Statewide Landcare and Trees Study (SLATs; Qld DNRW 2008a). The Change Detection Program in South Australia combines satellite imagery and high resolution aerial photography monitoring, contact with landholders and on-site inspections for clearance activity (SA DWLBC 2007b). Victoria is planning to implement the Native Vegetation Permit Tracking System, a vegetation remote-sensing mapping system, as part of the Net Gain initiative. It will assist the monitoring of native vegetation clearing and associated offset schemes and analyse tree cover change. The latter will be used as part of a compliance auditing system for forest practices and timber production. In 2003, the NSW Government pledged $3.5m to establish a satellite monitoring system in the state "

>>11838829
my man

>>11838770
yes but thats not the ato that the local council

I made a thread on the ATO Community board.

>>11839219
B R E N T
R
E
N
T

>>11837741
>>11837580
So much this. By not reporting ever time you buy into a shitcoin you're rorting the system and stealing from aussie working families of battlers doing it tough on struggle street. A Current Affair should do a special on people like you.

>>11839267
Wtf how do you know my name cunt

>>11838616
>They would never rip out a poo
Think again. Gov is employing Indians by the truckload these days.

I am so confused. Why does this shit have to be so difficult. It's like the cunts WANT me to dodge taxes. Which I have no moral objection to doing but I want to sleep well at night. I don't know why it can't be just be averaged out at the end of the year like most other countries. I think I'll do the cost base averaging method which should work out to be correct in the end

As I've been reading about this over the last 2 days I've started to think the ATO will change the rules to make it taxable only when crypto is converted back to AUD. But its just my feeling. It's really unprofessional how crypto is being dealt with.

>>11837447
capital gains and losses equal out, just pay capital gains tax on the final withdrawal to fiat.

>>11837447
FIFO. Your cost basis is $4000.

>>11838488
you should become a writer for movies and shit

>>11838794
I know this tech - but it doesn’t tell you if there is a bmw outside of someone’s house - at most it can identify simple objects.

The chances are you are deep in capital losses, so it no matter

>>11837447
FIFO unless you can prove otherwise. use an online service like cointracking. stop being a whiny bitch. is this for 2018 taxes. of so.... TAX LOSS HARVESTING, look it up. that is all

>>11837537
only of youcan prove it was the same bitcoin. only if ALL trades for the year can be proven as LIFO

Here:

https://www.cryptotrader.tax/blog/the-traders-guide-to-cryptocurrency-taxes

https://www.cryptotrader.tax/blog/how-to-report-cryptocurrency-on-taxes

And from the IRS site itself:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf

>>11839600

get a job working for a big 4 bank in their aml / compliance departments. you'll get your eyes opened quick sharp.

>>11839627

you're right, it doesnt identify that there is a BMW. But high quality aerial photography such is nearmap can easily be used to read all the numberplates in a suburb and look the cars up in the transport nsw database. Then its cross checked with the bank.

So the file looks something like this:
>2018 Nissan Skyline GTR
>receiving government benefits
>lives in bankstown
>large cash deposits or cheques from the casino
>???
>ato raid

>>11837580

You can but unless you're Wesley Snipes, odds are low. My co-worker hadn't paid his taxes in 7 years and they're just going to make him pay back what he owes. They were even nice to him on the phone.

>>11839638

Based and debtpilled

>>11839638
I could use the losses to offset my future gains though.

All you

>>11837589
here's the thing: if they find enough proof to sink an exchange, they will offer the exchange leniency in return for your trading records.

do you think Binance has your back at its own expense?

>>11838317

>>11840381
anon you can make common sense posts like this. it doesn't fit it with all the scared goys

>>11841385
>oh sorry roundeye, our trade records were rost

>>11837447
taxation is theft, dont bother

>>11837637

it's only for total profit, if you lost money like all of /biz/ then you aren't taxable