/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>11376946
If you want layer 2 solution do it by using another coin. XRP is fast. EOS is fast. Stellar is fast. Many coins are better than the lightning network. Layer 2 solutions are the biggest lie ever in the crypto space right now. If you need a coin to behave differently then fucking use another coin.

Fud

>>11376965
And stellar will have lightning up and working soon

He just has to wait for others to deposit btc before he can withdrawal it all

>>11376965
nothing that uses blockchain is fast. if a coin is fast it is not using a proper trustless distributed ledger.

>>11376974
You’re damn right it’s fud
>>11376989
there’s no incentive for anyone to set up an incoming channel

>>11377012
>nothing that uses blockchain is fast. if a coin is fast it is not using a proper trustless distributed ledger.

Ok so lets go with this shit tier debunked argument.
Lightning network is WORSE ANY FUCKING WAY. So shut the fuck up!

>>11376979
>And stellar will have lightning up and working soon

Why does stellar need it?... What the fuck is wrong with people in this space? Is everyone an NPC? Just because the name sounds cool doesn't mean its fucking needed!

>>11377141
>Lightning network
well that's not a blockchain either now is it?

Why not just use a coin that's fast and feeless?

>>11377189
Bitcoin = savings
Litecoin = spending account

>>11377188
>well that's not a blockchain either now is it?

No LN is garbage shit tier worse than pay pal absolute shit. You might as well use fucking cash.

>>11377189
> Why not just use a coin that's fast and feeless?

There is absolutely zero fucking actual reasons to not just do this instead. Not only is it more decentralized but most other fast and fee less coins work just fine for most most transactions anyway.

If you are willing to lock your coins into a channel then you might as well just lock your coins into another fucking coin!

>>11377198
> Bitcoin = savings
> Litecoin = spending account

This is fucking hilarious levels of bullshit to a point where its borderline trolling HAHAHA

>>11377210
>No LN is garbage shit tier worse than pay pal absolute shit.
there is one difference tho, if paypal says fuck you when you try to withdraw your money or they take 10% of your payment in conversion fees and there is no real alternative then you might reconsider.

i tried to pay usd i had money in my national currency, but paypal converted the usd that i sent to euros (some policy or what) then converted again and i also had to pay for conversion at the bank and transaction fees. so overall this game cost me about 10%. that was the last time i used paypal. when i told them (some guy in ireland over phone) this is not okay they promised to credit my losses as it was not clear this will happen, but they never did.

paypal is garbage on it's own way. also they fucking tell you who to make business and what you can buy? fuck them!

>>11377256
>there is one difference tho, if paypal says fuck you when you try to withdraw your money or they take 10% of your payment in conversion fees and there is no real alternative then you might reconsider.

You can easily blacklist BTC wallets with a setup using channels. SO its pretty much just a more complex version with lots of massive bugs.

> paypal is garbage on it's own way. also they fucking tell you who to make business and what you can buy? fuck them!

Then just use Layer one. Or use XRP, EOS, Stellar or any other fast coin.

>>11377284
Xrp is not decentralized and can be censored as a payment method.
Eos is not decentralized and can be censored as a payment method.

Welcome to crypto newfaggot, you got here after 2013 I'm guessing.

>>11377303
Oh was this an argument to justify using a super shitty solution that is not decentralized and can be censored as a payment method.

Man you really fucking countered my entire point? How heavy are those bags anon? Did you buy at 19k? Cuz the levels of delusion say LOW IQ and those bags are so heavy its causing major salty breakdowns.

> Welcome to crypto newfaggot, you got here after 2013 I'm guessing.

You see, nothing you say can counter what I am shoving up your stretched out butt hole. Nice try attempting to appeal to logic and reason with irrelevant garbage.

>>11377303
XRP is not centralised you stupid tech illiterate fuck. Nor is it mutable.

>>11377356
Also this EOS and XRP are not centralized anyway. But compared to lightning network both are comparably LESS CENTRALIZED by a large margin.

Fuck all layer 2 solutions. They don't make sense at fucking all.

>>11377373
LN is run by Blockstream, their goal is to cripple Bitcoin. This shit is NOT what Bitcoin was supposed to be. The most untouched and pure crypto around is Litecoin, I love that shit. So much better technically than Bitcoin.

>>11377284
>You can easily blacklist BTC wallets
you can it just won't have any effect as wallets are anonymous and easily changed.

>>11377472
>you can it just won't have any effect as wallets are anonymous and easily changed.

And you can avoid all of the headaches of dealing with this kind of bullshit by!

> Drum roll

Using another coin! YAY

Also LN is buggy as fuck and transactions can fail. I mean its not even possible to do it without major problems anyway.

>>11377416
>LN is run by Blockstream, their goal is to cripple Bitcoin.

No shit. Because its massively fucking shitty in every way shape and form.

> The most untouched and pure crypto around is Litecoin, I love that shit. So much better technically than Bitcoin.

..... Are you... Paying attention to any of this?

>>11377416

The Lightning Network is run by math, you stupid fucking broke Indian

>>11376965
layer 2 solutions are the future you dumbfuck

saged

>>11377532
>>11377545
Hi Blockstream

>>11377519
>..... Are you... Paying attention to any of this?

Not really I'm 3/4 asleep and I haven't even read the thread.

>>11377563
i hold zero bitcoin faggot. you desperate cultists see blockstream in everything BECAUSE YOU ARE CULTISTS

>>11377545
Oh yeah? ETH and EOS having side chains can make sense but in those contexts the side chain is another coin. Layer 2 solutions to shore up weakness of layer one are absolutely without a doubt 110% levels of layer deep bullshit that anyone will realize the moment they begin actually using the tech. Here is a hint asshole, if layer 2 is good enough then layer 1 suffers. Transaction fees go up a lot. If layer 2 is shit then another coin is better.

You will NEVER pass a shit tier argument that layer two will work for the benefit of a shitty layer one. You will never escape this fact. Another coin will always be better than a layer two solution.

>>11377545
>Band-aids slapped on top of shitty, broken, outdated tech are the future
lol

>>11377669
never made that argument you strawmanning dumbfuck cultist

>>11377687
thinks bitcoin is a model for anything
>t. bcash cultist

>>11377702
cringe

>>11376946
anyone who isn't holding the real bitcoin ( bitcoin cash ) yet is a fucking absolute tard.

>>11377652
Only reason you have no bitcoin is cause you only have that ripoff bcore with that buggy ass lightning layer, not the real Bitcoin CASH, stay mad greg

>>11377705
like sll cashies... redditor. surprise surprise

>>11377736
cringe again

>>11377734
cultists gonna doublespeak

>>11377691
Yeah you just fucking said its the fucking future. Why the fuck else would it be the future other than what I just said? Its not a straw man kek

LN is dogshit that is only benefitial to bitcoin whales
No one will buy bitcoins to receive payment
"Buy 1 Bitcoin so you can receive 1 Bitcoin"
That sounds totally like a scam

>>11377691
You are an NPC if you think what I just said was a strawman by the way.

>>11377734
btc - bitcoin
btcc - bitcoin core

>>11377743
or maybe you’re just a brainlet like most deluded corecuck maximalists kek

>>11377327
Been here since 2012 so actually my bags are feeling pretty good.

Anyone can join/run/operate a lightning node at will, it is opt-in/opt-out just like the actual internet which is a layer2 routing system for packets of information.

Try being an xrp or eos validator faggot.

>>11377356
See above faggot.

>>11377373
Not true and you are a retarded faggot for thinking that or a troll, hope just troll because otherwise you should just kill self.

>>11377416
My brain.

>>11377519
Yes it is trivial to avoid since anon apps are being launched everywhere right now, read about wasabi wallet faggot.

>>11377713
Bcash is the laughing stock of crypto but could still be good for a pump in the short to midterm. I have a shitload of it so I'm not bias here.

>>11377741
redditor

>>11377766
Btc = bcore

>>11377746
i was not talking about lightening you dumbfuck cultist
>obsessed with BTC

>>11377783
BTC - bitcoin
you - reddit

>>11377777
>Been here since 2012 so actually my bags are feeling pretty good.

Irrelevant. You can still be a retard.

> Anyone can join/run/operate a lightning node at will

Didnt counter my point. You fucking NPC spouting off pre scripted shit.

> it is opt-in/opt-out just like the actual internet which is a layer2 routing system for packets of information.

Didnt counter my point. You fucking NPC spouting off pre scripted shit.

> retarded faggot for thinking that or a troll

If you think this is trolling you are an NPC

>>11377793
>i was not talking about lightening you dumbfuck cultist

I was talking about ALL LAYER 2 SOLUTIONS
LOOM included!!

>>11377777
77777 get shits on all the ignorant crypto newfaggots here that have never even touched 1,000 btc.

>>11377777
>LINK $1000 EOY
Checked

>>11377813
The post was garbage tier though. You cant polish a turd.

>>11377809
You do realize the entire internet itself if a layer2 solution you fucking moron. When you send an information packet, it doesnt "update a copy of the ENTIRE INTERNET that everyone holds in their harddrive". Is it difficult being as fucking dumb as you?

>>11377839
>You do realize the entire internet itself if a layer2 solution you fucking moron.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! This fucker is trying to kill me with laughter!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>11377859
When you send a packet of information, it is not needlessly trying to update EVERYONE ON THE INTERNET about what just occurred. Lrn2 unicast transaction faggot.

>>11377189
>tfw feeless

>>11377859
Broadcast Data Transmission - a data transmission type where information is sent from one point on a network to all other points; one-to-all.

Unicast—a data transmission type where information is sent from one point on a network to another point; one-to-one.

This is for everyone else since you are too fucking dumb to realize how all this shit actually works.

>>11377882
are you actually retarded or what?

>>11377882
I don't have words to explain the levels of retarded this argument actually is. Its like you are throwing an MC Escher painting at me like a smoke bomb in an attempt to short circuit my brain. I feel stupider just knowing this argument has ever been used in the defense of LN. I feel like all of humanity has just felt an great loss in overall average intelligence like a disturbance in the force.

>>11377915
>This is for everyone else since you are too fucking dumb to realize how all this shit actually works.

Ok I will repost what I said so you can try again.

> Layer 2 solutions to shore up weakness of layer one are absolutely without a doubt 110% levels of layer deep bullshit that anyone will realize the moment they begin actually using the tech. Here is a hint asshole, if layer 2 is good enough then layer 1 suffers. Transaction fees go up a lot. If layer 2 is shit then another coin is better.

> You will NEVER pass a shit tier argument that layer two will work for the benefit of a shitty layer one. You will never escape this fact. Another coin will always be better than a layer two solution.

>>11377931
That's literally what my friends brain dead meth junkie cousin says when we say something to him he cannot comprehend.

>>11377931
I believe he is unironically retarded. Not even being insulting. This is brain damage. At this point the discussion needs to ask how it happened? Car accident maybe? Drug abuse?

>>11377943

>Didn't refute anything.

>Doesnt understand he is using an opt-in unicast transaction network.

>Doesn't understand how software scales.

>Doesn't understand software at all.

>Doesn't know what channel factories are.

>Doesn't realize the base layer is fine and pretty much anyone on the planet can join the network and run a full validating bitcoin node.

>Doesn't understand cryptocurrency.

Post 2013 newfaggot confirmed.

>>11378000
>>Didn't refute anything.

> Layer 2 solutions to shore up weakness of layer one are absolutely without a doubt 110% levels of layer deep bullshit that anyone will realize the moment they begin actually using the tech. Here is a hint asshole, if layer 2 is good enough then layer 1 suffers. Transaction fees go up a lot. If layer 2 is shit then another coin is better.

> You will NEVER pass a shit tier argument that layer two will work for the benefit of a shitty layer one. You will never escape this fact. Another coin will always be better than a layer two solution.

Get to work refuting anon.

At this point I feel like I am just being mean. Later anons. Please dont fall for the bullshit of layer two solutions that benefit layer 1. Side chains maybe I can see that work because side chains are meant to be their own entity.

I cannot see any possible scenario where a layer two solution is actually beneficial to layer one. It will either replace layer one entirely or be worse than just using another coin. Its a very simple argument.

> Bitcoin = savings
> Litecoin = spending account

fk anything else

litecoin for everyday use

bitcoin is gold hoard it

fk you sheklsberg

open your eyes

GPU mining for life

>>11377943
Layer 2 solutions to shore up weakness of layer one
>thinks all layer 2 solutions are designed for this reason because leddit bcash cultist
>leddit bcash cultists (LBC) have tunnel vision on Bitcoin because they are absolutely obsessed with it for reasons unknown
>LBCs get triggered becausr Bitcoin is digital gold
silly LBCs

>>11378086
>>11378084

>I cannot see any possible scenario where a layer two solution is actually beneficial to layer one. It will either replace layer one entirely or be worse than just using another coin. Its a very simple argument.

How it works is, someone explains an argument then you have to counter it with better arguments. What you are doing is being an NPC running a script.

I cant be the only one seeing this. Last two posts almost look like robots just going random at this point.

>>11377519
>Also LN is buggy as fuck and transactions can fail. I mean its not even possible to do it without major problems anyway.
i try to keep an open mind at first i was not a fan of ln but if they can make it work and it works for a while without problems i might give it a try.

it really only solves micro transactions i think. doesn't solve overall bitcoin scaling. it's retarded to expect too much of it.

>>11377759
>"Buy 1 Bitcoin so you can receive 1 Bitcoin"
that's simple not true where did you get that?
you can receive 1 btc via ln if you lock 0 btc into your channel. the other guy has to lock 1 btc into the channel tho he has to be a huge whale and will probably take his cut for locking in his btc.

>>11378084
>litecoin for everyday use
litecoin only scales marginally better than bitcoin. it's not a solution it's a distraction.

>>11377163
It's for privacy.

>>11377777
You can be an XRP validator faggot. Go run one. You're out of luck with EOS.

>>11377163
atomic swaps between chains is one good reason.
trade xlm for eth instantly, and trustlessly for example
have you ever considered that you may be the one who is wrong?

>>11377802
FAT - your mom
You - gay and homosexual

>>11376946

The absolute fucking STATE of bitcoin maximalists. Bitcoin is literally holding back all of crypto.

>>11379461
It really is sad, the bcore cucks are going to have such a painful meltdown over thr next few years as everything else surpasses it and they end up becoming monetary slaves to the all over again. The absolute state of these ancap occupy meme street children.

>>11379502
to the 1% all over again*

>>11378923
>atomic swaps between chains
can't work

>>11379534
its already been done you faggot

>>11379461
>Bitcoin is literally holding back all of crypto
>a core belief of cult of bcash
>hopes this statement will convince people to start buying those heavy bcash bags before the final crash to 1 sat
it's just not true, development on alt coin projects is steaming ahead at full speed.

>>11379534

>>11379534

>>11377777
Based AF.

>>11379727
yeah komodo doesn't do atomic swaps.

>>11379632
they are either not atomic or not secure. convoluted escrow shit with a complex distributed transaction involving a specialized token is not atomic.

>>11378597
>It's for privacy.

Interesting. But um Lightning is not a good way to do privacy. You are forced to pull all transactions through channels and centralized nodes. Do privacy some other way please.

>>11378923
>have you ever considered that you may be the one who is wrong?

I always do. But I am not a fucking idiot either. If I see a proper argument proposed I will look at it. This argument has been dead as fuck for a long time now. And people need to stop fucking acting like it even makes sense.

Second layer solutions to solve a major flaw of layer one will never be beneficial to layer one. Either using another coin is more ideal or layer 2 completely undermines the value of layer one. Because if Layer 2 is really better than layer one then NOBODY IS GOING TO FUCKING USE IT.

> trade xlm for eth instantly, and trustlessly for example

See now at this point I know you are just making shit up. How the fuck is this possible without a physical trade taking place? WHAT THE FUCK? This sounds like some serious fucking hand waving.

>>11379632
> its already been done you faggot

Oh you don't say.

>>11379808
> Based AF.

Is this fucker larping as a different person? yeah dawg this shit is based as fuck where you fucking claim people are totally going to blow tons of money to run lightning network nodes for free HAHAHAHAHA

Common fucking sense!! Do you speak it!!

>>11379913
But...it does lol

>>11380094
no it doesn't they can call whatever they want to call it it's not only not atomic but not secure either as in there is no guarantee that one side doesn't get screwed. it's also slow as hell.

i mean i applaud any effort to get rid of centralized services but this shit sucks balls and not atomic at all. basically doing atomic swaps on two separate blockchains is an impossibility without conditionally commited or at least reverseable transactions. no crypto currency has that to my knowledge. it's just a bullshit escrow with a utlity token which may or may not be an ico scam.

>>11380330
basically to do atomic swaps you need both chain to support it.

you can do conditional transactions like "if A for #A is revealed within 2 days Bob can spend my coins" and by Bob "if A for #A is revealed within 1 days i can spend Bobs coins"

only i know the secret A if i spend his coins he learns A and can spend mine, otherwise after 2 days the coins get released.

that is an atomic swap. the timing attack requires the secret holder to have a shorter timespan to reveal his secret by a considerable margin at least several hours.

it can be used in a double insured way when both parties hold secret but it's not really more secure imo.

>>11376965
If all you care about is speed just use visa

>>11380778
> If all you care about is mental health then discontinue this debate.

>>11380562
and of course this is not really atomic which is why i said there is no such thing. the secret holder has an advantage. he can spend unilaterally if the other party is not actively monitoring forgets about the transaction, or denied of internet access with a hack or by circumstance like natural disaster, his part will be spendable too after the time is up.

people call it atomic, but the cake is a lie. i suppose could still work to an extent.

>>11377012
Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand. Exactly this.

>>11380895
>Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand. Exactly this.

Ok bro, the internet is a second layer solution and block chains cant be fast. Yo bro is this totally based AF? Its totally based AF right? Am I being Based AF right now?

>>11380895
yeah, it is the truth but there is no guarantee it will remain the truth a few years from now. lots of research and development is going on. i firmly believe crypto is still in it's infancy.

>>11380935
>the internet is a second layer solution
third nigga tcp/ip is 3rd layer

>>11380943
>i firmly believe crypto is still in it's infancy.

Absolutely, but base fundamentals will still be the same overall. There are things we can predict in this space. Its not impossible to know if lightning network is a fundamentally flawed pile of mental disorders and bag holding. Maybe LOOM might work out different in some way but honestly even LOOM is kinda fucked on this front.

>>11380957
>third nigga tcp/ip is 3rd layer

Oh shit!! whats 4rth layer then? Do we just keep adding layers until shit gets super amazing?

>>11380999
>whats 4rth layer then?
application in the tcp/ip model like http or ftp for example.

>>11380957
Spotted the NKN bag holder

>>11382018
i don't even know what nkn is nigga