/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>11311028
>pizza for bitcoins

What a joke, who does that guy think he's going to scam.

Also, bitcoin will be a save haven for wallstreet, just like how Argentinian moguls hid their stacks away, but this time it will actually be a significant amount that changes the mc.

>>11311028
Full collapse.
Because:
-whales/brokers own a lot of crypto
-crypto is a highly speculative asset
-during a crash you need cash (to buy the dip)
-all money will exit crypto to buy dips/cover losses
Crypto peaked son, move on.
We are too late adopters.

>>11311138
can i ask how many times was it said that crypto peaked in the last 10years daddy?

>>11311028
Bitcoin launched after the financial crisis in 2008. I think quite a lot of money will flow into it if we have another meltdown.

>>11311239
May I ask how often crypto was not manipulated to hell?
May I ask how crypto is different from any other high risk, extreme volatile investment that almost always go to shit completely, if the economy turns to shit?

Don't be deluded. Joining crypto now is prime "new paradigm" - behavior. Joining crypto during a economic crisis is retarded, as is timing the market.

>>11311488
>I think quite a lot of money will flow into it if we have another meltdown
One question:
Why?

>>11311028

Money will flow to the safest assets and assets with a negative correlation to the market. So definitely not bitcoin or any other shitcoin lmao.

You guys dont realize Bitcoin is bigger idea than internet. Goverments are printing money.

Everyone will use Bitcoin soon and banks are destroyed , blockchain solutions are already for P2P loans etc.

ICOs are new future for crowdfunding

Nothing can stop us.
40k$ eoy

>>11311629
>>11311637
During a recession money flows to inverse or uncorrelated markets. This is a reason why we see gold for example go up when traditional assets and securities are doing poorly. Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are highly speculative yes, but there is a big enough disconnect between crypto and traditional assets that during a recession, it is likely price would hold, or go up. But fear could drive crypto prices down as well, it is something we will just have to wait and see. We have not had a correction since 2008 and have gone on an unprecendented bull run thanks to QE and such low interest rates that borrowing has been nearly free. The coming correction will be brutal.

>>11311028
Crypto is one of the riskiest assets, in a crash situation the riskiest assets get sold first. Crypto is dead once people don't have spare money to throw it in. A stock market crash also means house prices and wages down, people will hold onto their last bucks for dear life and there will be 0 people buying crypto but a lot of folks selling.

>>11312077
>This is a reason why we see gold for example go up when traditional assets and securities are doing poorly
Gold has an "anti crisis behavior" - always had, always will.
Individuals own it, as do states.
"Gold" is equivalent with "wealth". Always was, likely to be that way.

But Bitcoin has no "anti crisis"-behavior, as it is manipulated as fuck. It has no historiy, no culture, no state owning it. You cannot do anything with it.


Note: not saying crypto cannot make sick gains. But if you think crypto is going anywhere but straight to zero in a serious economic crisis, you are part of the "new paradigm"-crowd, from which I got my money from back in mid-december, when I cashed out.

imagine paying $6m for pizza lmao

>>11312161
To be fair you can’t say bitcoin has no “anti crisis behavior” absolutely. The empirical evidence just does not exist to back the claim either way. I will say however, it does look like bitcoin performs like gold during economic downturn, again if you look at Venezula, Turkey, Iran or India we see INCREASED bitcoin adoption and ownership in these countries because they are facing rapid inflation. We will have to wait and see how the chips fall when another large global recession occurs however.

>>11312198
Just a quick note; in all these countries with tumbling currencies the people would prefer to change into dollars. Cryptos are not their first choice.

>>11312161
Arguably you cannot do anything with gold too. Also
>bitcoin has no culture
nice cope

Perhaps it comes down to the severity of the upcoming crisis. Will it be only relatively minor recession (in which rich people will be finding new outlets to park their money into) or a full-blown shitshow?

>>11312180
try 60 million currently...

>>11312198
>The empirical evidence just does not exist to back the claim either way.

Cryptocurrencies are on the "extreme"-side of the high-risk investments within any portfolio. Look up how said high-risk investments turned out in the past decades.

>>11312281
>Arguably you cannot do anything with gold too.
Worst case, if is a shiny paper weight.

>nice cope
See >>11312161 - I made good money in crypto.

>>11311028
Nobody knows.

>>11312281
>full-blown shitshow
Ten years ago, we HAD such an event. And most high-risk investments went to shit. Even some of those who were "ok" by normal standards went to shit. If the economy would crash significantly harder than that, you better start to buy salt, sugar and flour.

No denying that we might face a smimilar crisis in the next decade (depends on too many factors to say for sure), but the severity does not matter here in the first place. Bitcoin was meant to be a currency, not a speculative vehicle. But everyone is betting on it becoming a currency, so they can make bank on using it as the speculative vehicle to get richer, which (among other problems like scaling, PoW, mesh-routing etc.) prevents it from becoming a currency.

Also, what happens in an economic crisis? People lose their jobs.
No jobs = no money.
No money = no one buying BTC.
And what will unemployed people with crypto do? They will sell it to meet their financial obligations. Rent, food, education for the kids etc. needs money, not crypto.

Less buying power + higher selling pressure = crashing prices.


In the end, you all "hodl" and hope to become richer, while sane people like me long have left the market.

>>11312561
So blockchain technology is just a fad for you?

>>11312478

Gold could not be used as a payment option while bitcoin could act both as a store of value and as a currency store of value.
And the value increase is impossible to deny since there is only a set amount of bitcoins EVER TO EXIST.And gold could be mined from asteroids in the future for example.

Also what matters is more like the community behind it.I dont doubt boomers liked to run into gold when it was urgent but the times are changing and the internet would be the last thing to die on the earth.

As i see bitcoin can be owned and be used by a chinese or by a brazilian or an american person the same way and governments could not control it at all so crypto is a much better way to save values.

But ofc if people dont understand this they could sell at the begining but for what?
Usd?Local currencies of the failed governements?

What exactly would be the point selling at that point i mean the whole crash happens because of usd in the first place?Debt ceiling increase sounds like a good idea everytime it is used but is that a real solution?

Currently bitcoin is as globally accepted as usd or gold.

Only the community matters.And i dont know anybody who would buy gold in case of a crash.I mean what can you do with gold?
Pet it while you die of starvation?

>>11312561
You all got that wrong.
Bitcoin could be used by the community as a payment option from day 1.
>No money = no one buying BTC

What are you talking about?

This is like saying No usd = nobody is buying USD?

Bitcoin is fucking global.And more available to anyone than USD.And is something that is closer to gold than USD.

>>11312757
>Bitcoin is fucking global.And more available to anyone than USD.And is something that is closer to gold than USD.
Then how come global economy works on and everyone is using USD and not gold?

>>11312813
I dont know maybe ask Shekelbergstein and his thugs.
And dont forget to ask for the date of the next war while you are at it.

But for real...bitcoin is quite a baby compared to usd or gold.
And the only thing it ever did since it was born was getting stronger.

>>11312579
I was enthousiastic about it since about Feb 2017 throughout the rest of the year. But the more research I put into it (background in IT & finance), the more it came clear that it is just a speculative vehicle, which I had chosen to leave in December.

My knowledge in tech concluded, that it is not even sure to be beneficial to anything. And the finance-guy in me was disgusted about the political bias, blatant manipulation, lies, deception and fraud in the market. Libertarians are never good business partners and the crypto market is full of them.

>>11312833
>I dont know
I am sorry to say this, but you sum up pretty much everything you know about financial markets, economy and technology.
I am not sure if BTC will "die" as in e.g. stop being in existence (which could happen if e.g. a blockchain death spiral occurs).
But global currency? Say "hello" to:
- still unsolved scaling problem on the tech side
- centralization of chinese miners on the political side
- unproven "rarity equals value in a currency"-thesis (while fiat proves the opposite to be the case since Bretton Woods)

"Adaption" will not happen. Because if it will, the fees make it unusable again.
Inb4 "lightning": mesh routing problem

>>11312119
Who exactly are these a lot of people you think are selling? Who's cryptos primary investors? If you honestly believe your stance, why would those people in crypto sell if the reason they are in crypto to begin with is to take back sovereignty. It's like having a bug out bag and burning it for heat the day after the apocalypse begins. See you're retarded.

>>11313505
>the reason they are in crypto to begin with is to take back sovereignty.
You completely mistake motives. Almost all retail investors want to make money out of crypto. Chasing the "my own bank"-dream is an additional thing to make people feel good, but if a relevant amount of people would place this above the motive of making money, we would not see so many memes about "making it" or people asking for opinions on the price.

>>11313413
Subtle troll 7/10

>>11313550
I see, you trained your debating in /pol.

>>11311028
If the stock market completely caves in then cryptos will go down because people will desperately need to sell to get $$. However, this time around when the economy takes a downturn the dollar will go into hyperinflation. When hyperinflation occurs, people will want to preserve their wealth and thats where PMs and Cryptos come into play. The big moon shot in crypo everyone is expecting will only happen when the dollar hyperinflates because hyperinflation gives EVERYONE a reason to want it. 99% of the world doesnt own/use crypto because there is no immediate need or benefit to having it. Most of the 1% that do own crypto own it because they can see all of this coming.

>>11311028
stock market wont crash, moron. its literally the only good way to make money. You see the housing crash in this chart? the stock market crash?

It doesnt matter what happen when it hits. What matters is after it hits

>>11314547
>stock market wont crash
New paradigm

>>11314612
here were the last few crashes. do you see them in amazon stock?

>>11311028
I think the safer guys will put money in gold and such. By safer I mean risk averse and more rich people.

But they will also put a percentage into crypto

Gold will increase more but crypto will see gains too. Cant predict how much tho. Can be anything to a slight bump

>>11311621
Just had incredibly strange de ja vu reading that

>>11314631
>gold
>risk averse and more rich people
I dont even...

>>11311028
everything will get rekt
invest in tinned food

>>11314875
What

>>11312281
Dollars are preffered, but there is still an increased demand for bitcoin.
>>11312478
Cryptocurrencies are a high risk invesment. Where they differ from historical high risk investments is that they are completely uncorrelated to traditional asset markets, thats the point I am making. The divergence is the reason cryptos possibly could do well or hold value in a recession.

>>11315116
While gold always will have a certain value (see the culture we talked about before), buying gold is not about avoiding risk. It fails to avoid risk. In fact, you can look up, how "secure" your money were with gold in the past couple of decades. If you then compare it with halfway sensible investments into stocks, gold just does not make sense.

Also, rich people use gold not as a safe way to stay rich. They use it to make their stuff shiny aka "use" it. But you have a hard time to find major positions of gold in the portfolio of people wanting to stay rich. Because it does a fuck-ass bad job in this regard.

>>11315273
One should consider buying gold to hedge, when a huge ass-fuck economical crisis is in full "FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK"-mode. Not, when it is "likely to happen in the next couple of years". Which is what differentiates the goldbugs from sensible and risk-aware people. The first one suggests to always buy gold. The second one knows a thing or two in economics.

>>11315263
>completely uncorrelated to traditional asset markets
A neither verifiable nor refutable statement, because we have no historical data on how cryptocurrencies behave during an economical crisis. Yet, we still lack any reason to believe that cryptocurrencies do not behave like any other high-risk investment.

>>11315349
Yes, but the small amount data we do have shows the during economic downturn Bitcoin becomes more valueable and adopted in places like Turkey, Iran, Argentina and Venezula.

>>11312077
Here’s an observation from crises past: when the shit hits the fan, everything becomes correlated. Gold shit the bed in 2008 before it mooned. Cash is king.

>>11312734
>le asteroid mining maymay
Are you this retarded in real life or just on the internet?

>>11312579
>he thinks blockchain tech requires crypto

I was a kid once as well

>>11315360
>more valueable and adopted in places like Turkey, Iran, Argentina and Venezula.

More valueable? Possibly. But I still fail to see a positive corellation between the price of BTC and economical crisis in economical emerging nations with borderline totalitarian governments. And even then, it is not sustainable.

Adopted? Not the case. At least not as a currency but as something, that can be used to avoid governmental capital control and get the money out of the country more easy. You dont need to buy gold on the market and drive it across a border, but simply buy BTC, send a private key to someone in another country and have him cash out.

>>11311621
The whole point of crypto beyond speculation is being an alternative asset during general crisis. If crypto goes down during that, it has literally 0 point besides crime.

>>11315381
Gold did not shit the bed in 2008. That was the beginning of a major gold bull run.

>>11315428
Bitcoin has higher rates of adoption compared to national average in countries experiencing economic downturn is what i was saying by “adoption”

>>11315432
As you can see gold took a massive dump in 2008. It did go up eventually tho

>>11315432
My point is that at the time of peak uncertainty/crisis, gold sold off too.

Crypto is.

>>11315441
People sold Gold to cover their losses in the market,
but barely anyone holds crypto this time, and absolutely no one has money in crypto that they will need to liquidate to cover losses in the market.

If crypto does dip with the market, I'd expect it to just be a psyop to flush out retards.
It will rise but whether it dips first or not is a gamble that I don't want to get involved in.
Buy and hodl.

People who think that crypto will moon when the stock market crashes are deluded. You idiots don't realize that most normies and investors treat crypto as silly tech stocks. When big tech dies, it is going to wipe out all of crypto along with it. Be safe and buy gold.

>>11315440
It has a higher rate of usage in terms of "amounts of transaction to prevent capital control" not in "I buy my daily cup of coffee with BTC"-terms.

How many people in Venezuela did you think used BTC from January to March? The transaction fee was almost a month salary for them back then.

>>11315441
It dumped on the 800B bailout news

>>11315461
Adoption can be as broad as higher levels of ownership, I’m not by any means saying it is being used as a medium of commerce in these countries but merely has higher levels of ownership than national averages in these countries which are experiencing economic downturns.

>>11315440
>muh third world
This is a meme that literally does not exist, nobody in shithole countries actually uses crypto like you faggots say. They cant even afford a bitcoin, how the fuck can they use it?

>>11311239
youre retarded because the marketcap is much bigger
We would have to go into yet another bubble to even reach 10k bitcoin

>>11315432
Gold dropped 50%, your image is misleading and cherry picks certain points by gold bugs

Gold crashed, then recovered slower than everything else including bonds

>>11315479
But ownership does not mean anything, as long as there is no corellation in between the value of BTC and the economical situation of said states.

>>11315494
Can you read? The evidence shows that in these countries that are undergoing economic downturn Bitcoin adoption rate is higher than national averages. Bitcoin adoption rate simply means more people own Bitcoin on average not that they are using it, they are protecting their wealth with bitcoin. Also, you don’t need to be able to buy a full bitcoin, you are talking and reasoning like a dumbass.

>>11315516
Local bitcoin prices are higher in these countries than typical exchange rate. Many factors at play for this like capital control but we do see increased demand for Bitcoin in these countries, its not even disuputable, I’m stating facts. Wether bitcoin goes up durinf a global recession is disputable.

>>11315514
It does not cherry pick, its the YOY return on gold. Also, >>11315467

>>11315518
Manipulated data and stories from cryptocrappers mean absolutely nothing. There is literally no use case. You cant protect your wealth with fake internet money. Only gold can do that.

>>11315560
The data is not manipulated, it is simple market data and per capita ownership data. Maybe you can’t “protect your wealth with fake internet money” but people in these countries think you CAN which is the most integral peice for something to become money or a store of value.

>>11315600
And when they all get burned by all crypto going to zero, they will have learned their lesson. Never buy snake oil.

>>11315612
I’m stating facts, all you are bringing to the table is conjecture. You should open your mind and think more critically about things.

>>11315538
>Local bitcoin prices are higher in these countries than typical exchange rate
You are right, yet there can be many reasons, why this is the case. This can range from inflation to simply a way lower supply of BTC for the local market (we saw this phenomenon in Africa several times). It is unlikely that this impacts the overall global price of BTC, as most of these users only use BTC as a vehicle to go from local currency --> BTC --> USD.

Because with USD, you can buy anything, anytime, everywhere.

>>11314530
Amen

>>11314889
>>correlating sjws and "Global Warming crowd" with fucking SOLAR MAGNETIC ACTIVITY lows

this has to be bait. Holy shit "dramatic cold period" bwahahaha. Been happening every 11 years since the sun formed

>>11315623
you still here?

>>11316015
Yes

Roger "MtGox is fine, CSW is Satoshi, DASH is the real Digital Cash, XT/BU/S2X/BCH/BSV is the Real Bitcoin/Bcash is my project/BUY MY ICO" Ver,

>>11316015
Look here how to respond properly:
>>11315655

People in crisis-hit countries are using crypto to smuggle their wealth away before the state/inflation or others get it.

Here, I will even give you a link. Pic related.
https://www.businessinsider.nl/dash-cryptocurrency-surges-in-venezuela-as-hyperinflation-explodes-2018-8/?international=true&r=US

We will see how crypto responds to a financial crisis. It helps the case if there's also a currency crisis (which is a good reason there will be), but there are forces that act negatively for the crypto, mainly because people are cashing out to save for essentials or for the dip.

>>11316107
Care to share your portfolio and your general moves in the upcoming year?

>>11312180
>he wasn't buying pizza newfag.
>plebbit has been unironically peddling this cp meme for years now.
>don't tell them when you go back.

>>11316414
Sure, first my philosophy. I am a long term investor seeking extremely high multiple returns. So my dilligence is based on this strategy. I reasearch fundamentals heavily and am not concerned by short term price fluctuation. I won’t share my portfolio weights but I will say the majority of my holdings are in bitcoin. I entered a low margin long on Bitcoin recently and am invested in Cardano, Stellar, Enigma, Ethereum, Siacoin, and Decentraland. Some of these holdings make up extremely small amounts of my portfolio for example Decentraland, I just think its a very novel idea but probably not a good investment. I see 95-98% of current blockchain projects failing but I am not a bitcoin maximalist and believe that there is room for multiple platforms in the world. There are some gems hidden in the pile of dirt but you MUST manage your portfolio risk and should prioritize bitcoin ownership.

>>11313413
What about an investment vehicle? Could it turn out to be a solid option for diversification?

>>11316466
What do you think is the value proposition of BTC in long-term horizon?
On which platform are you holding that BTC long (fees)?

>>11316785
I don’t like to speculate price targets but technologies typically reach the critical mass crossover point around 20% adoption. So discounting for children and others who will just never participate in this system we will likely see the crossover at around ~800M bitcoin network participants/holders. Price rise will be fast exponential as the network grows at its fastest rate, according to Metcafe’s law. If bitcoin is adopted globally as the dominating currency one coin will easily be worth 10s of millions. Within 6 years my model shows bitcoin reaching 280,000-350,000$ per coin. I’d rather not share what platforms I use.

>>11316885
Roughly the market cap of gold in 6 years

>>11311028

I bet they sat on the pizza shop computer fopr awhile and were eventually thrown in the dumpster

>>11316885
would you be willing to mentor me??
you can have all my profit as long as I learn something new

bizhelper4chan@gmail.com

>>11317701
What knowledge do you think I could impart on you? What are you seeking to learn? I don’t need any money from you.

>>11317835
alot regarding finances I hope, and in general how Value moves up and down, influence it haves on the world globaly.

Also I hope, how to learn TA and become better at earning money. as Of now I got severly limited life after I ended up in "loney bin- stress induced psyhosis"

And having a mentor makes learning new stuff, very easy(time investment). mainly from the increased level of asbortion of info, compared to traditonal textbooks(school systems)

>>11311621
>May I ask how crypto is different from any other high risk, extreme volatile investment that almost always go to shit completely, if the economy turns to shit?
most of the money came in from speculation and hype, but the technology theoretically allows for everyday-usage, and there are billions of normies out there that have no idea what crypto means.
what i'm saying is that a highly decentralized coin could potentially tap into all the normie money still out there.
not saying it will happen, in fact i doubt it (i think there will be a global digital currency, and also that it will not be made from a private company), but id like your input on how this is not a valid argument for more growth.

>>11317907
Well like I said here >>11316466
I’m a long term value investor. I could teach you about domestic and global markets and how they operate also the history of American finance and money systems. I don’t do a bunch of technical analysis, I’m not a day trader. I do look at charts to determine entry points. Unfortunately learning these things is not easy and you will always have to continue to seek information. You need to be very strong mentally to succeed in the markets aswell. I’ll consider helping you out, if you could be a little more specific on what you want to learn. Fundamental analysis, entering/exiting a trade, risk management, etc.

>>11317907
Also if anybody emails you asking for compensation for teaching you, it is not me.

>>11317976

Well all of that sounds very intresting. Learning entry points would be great as well.
risk managment would be super to learn.


I am not hungly into daytrading. investing and letting it grow is more my style(less stress))

If there are books I should read I will, no problems there. But I would need to discuss parts of what I read, as I do have some problem ingesting writen information(or poorly presetented information(atleast from my point of view)


and also you should think about it for a bit.
as I am very long term on these things. soo I do want to learn a great deal of things. if you have the patientc.

Will go to bed. take care. good thread.

>>11318018
>>11317976
To make it easy. what should be the first thing I should learn from your point of view? and then build on that.

get on my level faggots

>>11318035
Sounds like portfolio growth and management is your goal to me, so without knowing what your starting knowledge is you should learn about basic factors of market dynamics first. Bids/asks, size, market depth, complex orders, shorting, volume, margin, liquidity, slippage, etc. Then you should read some books on market psychology and get some personal experience paper trading or with a very small amount of money.

>>11318095
have traded from 2k am now sitting on roughly 16.5k. will copy past what you wrote and start reading up on it. thanks man.

My primary goal is knowlege regardless the cost of aquiring it

will copy past down what you wrote will start looking into it

>>11318043
still easier than oldwow raiding

>>11318043
what exactly am i looking at?

>>11311138
This, but make sure to buy the bottom, just as one should have bought the bottom of the stock market collapse in 08

>>11318139
it appears that he is using astrology and star charts to assist him in trading Ethereum. I’m pretty sure he is kidding, at least I hope so

>>11318155
i got that it is astrology, but i was wondering what exactly those diagrams represent.
no, i'm not going to use them.

>>11318116
How'd you go from 16k to 2k?

>>11312561
>Bitcoin was meant to be a currency, not a speculative vehicle. But everyone is betting on it becoming a currency, so they can make bank on using it as the speculative vehicle to get richer, which (among other problems like scaling, PoW, mesh-routing etc.) prevents it from becoming a currency.
I beg to differ.
>As for the long transaction delay and poor scalability, I long considered bit-gold as a design for "high-powered money" that like gold could be used as an investment vehicle, a medium for large transactions, and a reserve currency against which digital notes could be issued. It would be however be far more securely auditable than remote gold vaults. If you're right on this critique Bitcoin may be destined to become a high-powered money rather than a day-to-day payment system for the masses.
I don’t think you understand money...
As for whether it's a bubble, any collectible market can turn into a bubble. It's the nature of the beast. But at the current prices and supply, the amount of Bitcoin (last I heard about $40 million in USD terms) was still very small compared to many other collectible markets, much less the amount of currency in circulation from the central banks of even tiny governments. Bitcoin certainly has major downside risks but it also has far more upside potential than other collectibles. So obviously it's an extremely risky investment at this point in time. Nobody should be doing anything remotely close to what I read this morning from some twitterer (presumably it was just prevaricating puffery) and putting "all [his] money" into it. It's a curiosity collectible, an alternative to a small fraction of one's gold holdings as a hedge for fiat-denominated debt, and a medium of exchange for at least certain niche transactions. And potentially much more.” (2011, Nick Szabo)

>>11318043

reminder that astrology and horoscopes use semantic ambiguity to create the illusion of accuracy and are not to be taken seriously


an unfortunate trick of language.

>>11311028
same thing that happened to the gold 10 years ago.

>>11312161
>Bitcoin has no "anti crisis"-behavior
>Venezuelans Argentinians and Indians are all totally investing in gold right now because their state currencies' are failing
fucking good one anon saving this spice for my pasta

>>11314547
charts like this are fucking hilarious when you consider 40% of index funds worth are coming from tech this year. the second amazon prime membership starts to flatline or even decline amazons stock price is going to heavily correct

>>11315655
Being very obtuse about real world data.

Its seems logical that atleast in these "third world shitholes" Crypto are used as a means of saving/securing wealth from inflation / using it as a means to avoid capitol controls.

Not saying the data can be extrapolated to a global crisis event, however the possibility exists that crypto is here to stay, even in the event of a global recession, as the data from these countries reveals.

>>11321227
>if street shitters and people dumb enough to elect socialists are smart enough to buy bitcoin, it must be worth something

>>11313528
Why are you trying to talk logic to cult members.

Who the fuck will pay for cellphone or internet service if a severe crash happens? Let alone have a smartphone or computer they haven't sold for basics yet?

>>11317985
Whats your email/discord, am interested in learning