/biz/ - Business & Finance

>>10773100
They will have to force us to back down

>>10773100
It really wouldn't be beyond the power of a sufficiently powerful nation-state to cripple the internet and turn it into some sort of North Korean government controlled sandbox

>>10773100
but the end goal of communism is stateless society and btc is unironically the most realistic shot we have of ever destorying state power. Maybe blockchain tech will usher in a tech utopia where both the libertarians and commies are quite happy.

>>10773100
but the same was always true, communism was always impossible as some free market pops up based on some currency or neans of exchange. Bitcoin did not kill communism.Communism was never alive to begin with

>>10773147
>but the end goal of communism is stateless society

Lmao you fucking retard. The actual goal of communism is to make the State the monopoly of literally everything.

>>10773147
>but the end goal of communism is stateless society

bitcoin entirely undermines the federal reserve and all banks
capitalism can't exist without the Fed reserve

>>10773178
>>10773230
well there is something called anarcho-communism. idk how it works though lel.

>>10773253
what? do you know what capitalism is?
>Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.
why do you need the fed reserve for that?

>>10773266
because the only "successful" implementations of capitalism all have a privately owned reserve bank??

>>10773297
what. why?

>>10773253
retard alert. capitalism only requires two people on earth. it existed long before central banks and long after.

>>10773147

Horseshoe theory in a nutshell. Full state communism doesn't work obviously, but most of the real commies (as in, not SJW millenial faggots) that I know are into AnCom these days. They're just as into crypto as the AnCaps I know, as in theory you can use smart contracts to create a classless & stateless society (blah blah), where each worker is basically self employed (as in, it's impossible to not find at least some really simple way of producing income with minimal effort) and just sells the product of their labour to the next step in the supply chain. Since each worker is free to bid & compete (thus allowing for quality of workmanship, aesthetics and the other intangible factors to be factored in that traditional Marxism is terrible at) and you have something like an uber-free market mediated via smart contracts emerge. Combined with automation and plummeting prices from the efficiency, and it's hard to see how it's not more or less identical to the AnCap utopia. So they're trying to get this type of thing mapped out for use in their workers collectives and coops on the one side, while AnCaps are over here wanting to do the same thing with businesses and totally new organisational models on the other. It'd be the best of all worlds if they meet in the middle, metaphorically speaking. No messy revolution or whatnot, just both the current pseudo-capitalist plutocracy AND corrupt state communist models made permanently obsolete.

>>10773266
you need the fed reserve to insure against nationwide bank runs when one bank get sunk by accumlated bad debt.

>>10773297
no you're retarded

successful economies without a central bank:
>American Colonies (extremely wealthy)
>Napoleon's France (wealthy enough to fight all of europe simultaneously)
>USA during industrial revolution until 1917(?)(not sure on exact year) (massive industrial boom)
>Hitler's Germany (see Napoleon's France)

Basically any country that could avoid having a central bank became an economic powerhouse but the temptation by elites to create a (((federal reserve))) for economic manipulation and create essentially a oligarchy was always too great to resist in the long run.

God you’re all so fucking stupid

>>10773253
>t. The result of the current education system on display

The current system is just plutocracy, it's nearly as far from actual capitalism as feudalism is. The state subsidises massive corporations, that in turn buy influence with the state, that then uses force to compel you to pay them rent. It's a protection scheme writ large. Look at Bezos for example, first thing the fucker does is buy off Democrats to pass laws & regulations that ensure his monopoly can't be challenged. The real AnCap dream is more like old school Jeffersonian Capitalism, lots of small to medium businesses, mutuals, co-ops, partnerships etc. Basically, voluntary participation all the way, 0 real obstacles to anyone participating (so long as they don't violate the rights of others) and if you're doing something of value you'll succeed. The kind of massive megacorps we have now are really just outgrowths from the state, they wouldn't likely by possible in a real free market.

>>10773297
>>10773401
please take the time to educate yourself and understand the real reason why crypto is important.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBk5XV1ExoQ

>>10773142
you dont need the internet to transfer crypto, they just have to be on the same local network

>>10773401
central banks are always created after the fractional reserve banking system nearly collapses out of sheer stupidity

>>10773482
so you rekon norks are playing capitalist on private betworks with btc right now? cause then you are stupider than 99% of hamsters.

Problem is communism is ultimately a political system. How can bitcoin be used if a communist country kills anyone using it? And u have to use the gov sanctioned crypto with endless supply.

I hope im wrong though but gov still can have a lot of power

>>10773495
That's not why they're created. You're implying that they exist to protect people and banks from bank runs. That's just one small and negligible part of their intended use.

>>10773570
yeah. if you have to sneak around exchanging thumb drives; it'd be better to just use gold/silver/platinum coins or pure barter.

>>10773582
its the main reason dude take your tinfoil hat off for a moment and think! central banks try to provide monetary stability and insure against banks stopping loaning to each other and rekting their collective solvency.

>>10773342
One person. Robinson Crusoe was a capitalist.

>>10773659
there is no crypto i know of that can be traded offline. pendrives seriously?

>>10773784
you can send bitcoin via sms.
unless the government bans all internet entirely, bitcoin will still exist. There is no way to censor it since all nodes are p2p.

>>10773806
no transactions have to hit the mempool and confirmation also comes on the internet. offline transactions are the same as writing numbers on a piece of paper and trying to pay with them.

>>10773806
>There is no way to censor it since all nodes are p2p.
oh boy... isp gov controled -> they can censor whayever the fuck they want

>>10773829
yeah you can literally put one sat in a paper wallet and hand it so someone if you so desire.
Easy as fuck

>>10773230
I dont have any illusions about what communism *actually* is, it's just when debating with commies they literally can't refute that the end goal of communism must be a stateless society. Extrapolating from that, blockchain is clearly the best means we have to achieve this end because it's public and immutable.

It's pretty clear to me that blockchain can absolutely fuck up centralized powers like the US federal bureaucracy and drastically diminish the role of the state.

>>10773401
You know where Germany got the money from? They stole it from the jews

>>10773890
and you can literally hand it a thousand times to a thousand people offline duck off you retard!

>>10773760
There's intended and unintended consequences of central banks, maybe hundreds of years ago they were created explicitly for protecting the public and banks from each other, but their role has evolved and now I think they have significantly overreached and their main goal is manipulating the economy (they would call it "smoothing").

Just like the federal government of today has vastly overstepped its initial purpose, so have the central banks. And call me a cynic but there's a lot of factors that suggest there are powerful people who profit from this overreach.

>>10774022
im not saying there is ni overreach but to call it the purpose of cb thats bullshit

>>10773100

Former Warsaw Pact citizen here. The issue was not that there was no money, but that money could not be exchanged for goods due to lack of goods combined with price controls.
The solution was to purchase stuff from illegal import on the black/grey market, but that required foreign currency since the smuggler needed foreign currency to pay his foreign supplier. And of course, having foreign currency in the first place was illegal.
Bitcoin does indeed solve the problem of getting the foreign currency, but so does Paypal.

>>10773253
what the fuck do you think things were like before central banks?

>>10774254
peasants farming their own food and dying of the common cold?

>>10774278
the Gilded Age came before the Federal reserve ever existed
maybe you should like, actually read up on basic history before you try and spout bullshit

>>10774296
majority of the population was still living like peasants in 1916 so idk what your point is son

>>10773479
Here’s another good resource
https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/12/18/who-owns-the-federal-reserve-bank-and-why-is-it-shrouded-in-myths-and-mysteries/

>>10774296
> The gilded age
It was called that for a reason, knuckle-dragger

>>10773256
it doesn't work. that's the problem.

>>10773890
>Extrapolating from that, blockchain is clearly the best means we have to achieve this end because it's public and immutable.

What I'm wondering though is that communists are extremely devoted in ending wage labor. I don't see the adoption of blockchain putting an end to that aspect of capitalism but it will probably only go so far as to diminish the state's own tools for controlling money. There's also the other issue about private property that I don't see going away.

>>10773178
You’re incorrect, the stages of communism are:
1) revolution
2) dictatorship of the proletariat
3) utopia/anarchist state

It doesn’t work because you never get past stage 2...that’s the point of “animal farm” the dictatorship always...always turns into the new bourgeoisie. But giving power to the socialist state are an ends to the means...not the end goal itself

>>10773142
>Sandbox
North Korea has a huge black market. The harder a government tries to exert control over the market, the greater the subversion of that market

>>10774970
*means to an end

>>10773147
>abolish private property
>Libertarians happy
You are violating their N.A.P. by infringing on their rights to force them into your fucked up collective

>>10773147
>the end goal of communism is stateless society
why do you expect working and skilled people to distribute their hard earned resources to freeloaders and retards without the threat of violence from the state

>>10774980
No, no, don't you get it? The """"abolition of private property"""" is a meme. The truest and most private property is the human mind (or a smuggled thumb drive). Data will always ultimately be private property. It can never be taken away. As long as private thoughts exist, the market will always exist.

>>10774997
>>why do you expect working and skilled people to distribute their hard earned resources to freeloaders and retards without the threat of violence from the state
what if that freeloader and retard was the owner of property?

>>10775012
Then that owner will be subverted. This is the law of the jungle. The retard will always, eventually, have his lunch money stolen.

>>10775052
we should make laws that prevent private property from being expropriated or unfairly taken away.

>The executive of the modern state is but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie.

>>10773349

Holy shit you are so fucking dumb it hurts. At first you sound marginally coherent with your horseshoe meme but then you proceed to describe a free market that literally completely contradicts BASIC Marxist principles both from the original body of work and those expanded upon by modern “intellectuals” you see in a free market you will always form inequality due to some innate property or ability or chance. Sure we may not judge workers by the colour of their skin but we will judge them by something. A Marxist society fundamentally must be opposed to ALL forms of inequality. It is not just some meritocratic society where we eliminate a few prejudices. Honestly do more research on what modern Marxist intellectuals promote. For example, and I am not joking, many Marxists believe that even terms like “stupid” is fundamentally ableist and we should not recognise any individuals intellectual performance as being more valuable than other. How exactly does that tie in to your free market scenario?

>>10774970
>ends to the means
Nice Freudian slip there, glowy.

>>10774944

If state power truly recedes it may well be possible or even mandatory to have smaller merchant republics and independent entities like the knights templar in the middle ages. Some jurisdictions may attempt to just give everyone there everything for free though they'll still be subject to competition with those that don't, but I doubt the property less vision would work. I heard someone say that capitalism and communism as we know them are fraternal twins spawning from the same mother of mass democracy and it's dream of controlling everyones resources, which makes a lot of sense. The ideologies will likely find themselves quite outdated as smaller entities are much more capable of determining their own order instead of constant squabbling over what will be the direction of the one power over all and not being burdened by the monopolistic states crushing inefficiencies. The crazier things get the more I think the western powers especially are approaching their Tower of Babel moment.

>>10773100
NSA and china can ruin bitcoin with their and control it supercomputers

>>10773100
>Because of bitcoin, capitalism is now impossible to destroy.

Uh, No. Capitalism thrives off of poverty. If you remove poverty you destroy capitalism since it has nowhere to profit from.

>>10773354
You only need banks because you can't store your own money safely.

Now I can buy six trezors and store two on each of three continents in case of disaster. Don't need a bank anymore, though maybe I'll have to pay a lot for someone to store something for me that will be around when I need it.

>>10773902
No. They reclaimed their rightful money that the filthy money lender kikes scammed out of them over years. Hitler was a hero before he an hero'd

>>10775297
>>No. They reclaimed their rightful money that the filthy money lender kikes scammed out of them over years. Hitler was a hero before he an hero'd
Is this why libertarians have mostly been jewish or german expats?

>>10774972
You're right

>>10775270
>Capitalism thrives off of poverty

>>10776124
I agree. Capitalism does best when people overall are wealthy. It's really unfortunate that it's grounded in a way where inequality is almost necessitated.

>>10776124
Why do you think manufacturing in the US is in decline, while corporate gains are at all-time highs? Protip: It's not because Southeast Asia is wealthy.

>>10776741
and who do you think buys all that crap, poor third worlders?

>>10773100
In practice communism is just state corporatism in the name of the people, and they kill off the people who ran corporations for a living and replaced them with "intellectuals" versed in theoretical economics that don't function or exist, resulting in constantly shifting and restructuring economies that the people running it don't understand that eventually cave to underground capitalist economies or mixed model liberalization to survive beyond the point a gun barrel can extend a nonfunctioning oligarchal regime.

>>10777018
Poor first worlders, on credit.

>>10775131
>Marxists believe that we should disregard reality

Seems fitting

>>10777215
yet none of them put a single dollar in the stock market. Whats your point

>>10773100

Good luck finding a source of electricity under communism