/biz/ - Business & Finance

>This means they have to sell their own bitcoin below 5k to get there.
whoa

>>10596397

all bullshit.
whales did all the BUYING since april. They jsut have to stop buying, like they have, and the lack of buyers and support makes btc go down.

its going to 3.5k. might bounce fast but it is

>>10596430
They also did the selling. So the lower it goes and they don't buy, the more they risk other whales buying before them. The risk increases the lower it goes. A few big buys can trigger the rest. it is just like selling the top of a parabolic run up. Once a few blink, it triggers the rest and the top is in.

>>10596397
There is a massive amount of FUD right now because institutional money is trying to get into the market. They want cheap prices in preparation for ramping up their businesses in Q4 / Q1.

We are getting the head of the NYSE starting a bitcoin exchange in November. Every big bank is starting crypto custodial services. ETF will come after we have these things. They are taking advantage of the ignorance of you guys. Have a gander at some numbers:

Net inflows to bitcoin since it was created are like $15B.

We have $30T in the stock market.

'99-'00 tech bubble saw 15-20% allocation to tech stocks. ($5-$6T by today's standards)

We have $15B in so far. We are headed to $5-$6T invested, if not more. Bitcoin is going up another 100x and all the smart money knows it.

>>10596473

point is, if it doesnt hand around there long new whales cant accumulate. it needs to be in 3k-4,5k zone for months to years for new mega whales. wont happen.

they can jsut stop buying and let plebs panic sell it and alll compete for a small share. no new whales are getting formed. wallstreet can never get a big supply, and they dont need to.
Wall stree are just going to create "asset backed" btc trading, like how the NYSE BaKKT is already confirmed to be doing, but in truth its partial backing. 1 BTC = 25 BTC contract. they can create btc out of thin air, and have the highest liquidity playground.
Old whales cant stop them. funny shit is how most people think the NYSE is bullish. hahahahahaha. they have no idea.

>>10596430
This. Whales don't need to do the selling, they just need to wait long enough and let miners do it for them, the miners will have to just to pay operating expenses.

>>10596528
They did this same shit to precious metals too, I fucking despise derivative markets.

>>10596502
Yeah the infrastructure is being laid for a massive bullrun. Normies had problems figuring out how to buy last time, that won't be an issue with ETFs and the like.

If you aren't buying the dips now, you will look back in a year and say "The signs were so obvious, why wasn't I buying?"

>>10596528
>making yourself vulnerable to a short squeeze that dollars can't bail out

lmao, even wall street doesn't take on this much risk. they'll make a 100x long on houses because the people will riot if daddy government doesn't protect home prices with bailouts.

the banks will go belly up if they get squeezed on BTC

>>10596430
>>10596537
you guys patently wrong
whenever strong bears and bulls step away BTC's price moves upwards

normies and speculators ARENT SELLING

>>10596430
i agree with this.
if the whales hodl, then only the small users transactions will matter, so if a higher % of them are sellers than buyers are willing to soak up, then the sellers will keep lowering their prices until they can rid themselves of their coins. If you look at a gpu mined coin, most the small users are the miners, are they selling or hodling?

>>10596564
They did this to the metals market right about the time they figured it was actually viable to go get an asteroid if needed. The fair market price of an oz of gold is maybe $50 now because of that, but no one is going to crash a good thing while the tards still pay up.

You can't go get a bunch more bitcoin. It doesn't work the same way. The reason bitcoin has believers is because it is fundamentally different from the fiat / metals markets, a technically super money that can't be inflated or crashed.

>>10596564

exactly where BTC is going. its gonna be stagnant, all volatiltiy shaken out of it. but i anticipate a bull run to about 15k before NYSE opens. after we bottom at 3.5k....

then when reality hits, that its just wallstreet creating btc out of thin air and doing what they want with it... crash.

>>10596569
Large miners are always selling, doesn't matter if BTC is up or down, they always sell most of what they mine.

>>10596593


its wishful thinking anon. the "tail that wags the dog" of derivative markets will always allow them to do anything they want. they will shake all volatility form BTC. i wish it could go to 100k, i really did, but since that news about NYSE i have given up all hope now.

why would they ever want it or let it get that high?

pic very much related.

>>10596624
They don't have any control.

People don't trust banks. They want an alternative, and now they have it. More and more are switching every day. It's GG for the banks. They can cash out by buying in now, or end up poor.

Banks are not one bit different than retailers that amazon is bankrupting. Already dead.

>>10596623
speculators, money transfers, and normies are always buying

miners only make about 10 million in BTC daily
10 million TINY compared to 500 million dollars dumped past 24 hours

>>10596666

they have. not conro lover the physical supply. they dont need it. they can control ALL price action by creating derivative market. they slowly make people hate BTC after years or decades.

its how they work

>>10596722
I think that depends on the alternatives out there to the infrastructure their laying and how the next generation compares to this generations. Will we trust the same institutions with our assets? Will new ones replace them?

>>10596722
It is hard to really get it.

Ten years ago kids making stuff arrive in the mail from the internet were magicians. Now grandmas find amazon easier than going to the grocery store.

5 years from now you'll be looked at as a retarded cuck if you don't control your own money (hodl bitcoin).

It just be how it is. The sooner you get it the more you win.

>>10596722
>derivative market
I know what an options contract is, but I don't understand how futures are different. Options contracts could be enacted in a smart contract so I don't see the problem.

>>10596816
I have some hope you're right but it's going to have to start from the younger generations. Old boomers still trust institutions

>>10596828
He is basically saying wall street can you sell you an unlimited supply of "Goldman Sachs Coin" marketed as Bitcoin, without actually having Bitcoin.

He gets this idea because they did it with gold (selling claims on gold, but not having physical gold). It's fine because there is no reason to actually hold gold. No one is going to call it in.

Bitcoin is valuable precisely because you can hold it. There is reason to hold it. It grants you sovereignty.

No bank is going to go massively short BTC by selling what they don't hold because these are options that WILL get called in for phys.

>>10596868
Bigger chance of them getting liquidated in crypto than gold though. Gold is physical and so people can't be bothered with calling it in. Bitcoin is digital and easy to move. Also, there are alot more savvy people in crypto with distrust in banks and gov't , which could create alot more buzz to have a run on the institutions than old bommers who are naive. If anything, they probably can't leverage it as much as gold.

>>10596928
Yes, exactly. They can't short btc by issuing paper btc the way they did with gold.

I know there are bankers planning exactly that, but they'll get talked down because it won't work. Or go bankrupt. But it really doesn't matter because it is a nonstarter play.

>>10596828

look how they do it to gold and silver, you will find answers better than i can explain.
>>10596816

i agree with the technology side, and yes thats technology adoption curve. this is different. they obvious dont want people being their own bank. they cant stop us using it and learning and adopting, but they can stop its price from growing..... which is HOW they stop us using it. they crash it, make it stagnant, by controling it with a derivative market.... after some years it makes people hate bitcoin.

now maybe they still use it, but price sure as hell aint reaching 20k again.

>>10596722
it could work if current economic model will sustain
there are signs it's about to collapse very soon

>>10596945

Why are you so convinced? Can you share a bit more? Leaning to your stance but massively mistrust bankers and financiers in general

>>10596868

interesting view. this might be the Achilles heel of their plan.

>>10596945


only scenario here is if wall stree group with sole intention of fucking it, never intending to withdraw the btc. no calls that way. still massive liquidity. unlike gold... real physical btc is rarely trading. small supply is traded each day. they wont need to fabricate many to have larger liquidity on their platforms.

>>10596952
Crypto is going to be alot harder to control than physical gold and silver.

>>10596928

>>10596997
Wallstreet can still make money but being exchanges/custodial services and making fiat loans backed by digital principals. They might have to adapt to stay alive. This is a paradigm shift in society

>>10596952
>they obvious dont want people being their own bank.

You can't stop an idea whose time has come.

Look at the #1 trend in the meat and potatoes of the market over the last 20 years: streamlining production > shipping > store > consumer. Lower inventories, lower cost of capital, higher profits.

Banks are a huge thorn in that. Days for transactions to settle. Can get really frustrating internationally.

Bitcoin? Just a few minutes.

Trillions of dollars are onboarding eventually just from this. There are so many more efficiencies, you can't name them all.

This train has no brakes gentlemen.

>>10596997
Also, you have new players emerging like coinbase that deal in physical which could push them to not over leverage. People could trust thes new startups more. Like me, coinbase ain't perfect, but I would rather deal with them than goldman sachs.

>>10597047
Exactly utility and efficiency = adoption by the capitalist system. Added bonus of decentralised - more individual power and personal influence & incentives to integrate into the new tech means crypto adoption is inevitable.

>>10596666
demonquads
Interesting comparison between amazon and crypto
how many years away is crypto from taking a chunk out of banks 3-5 years?

>>10596964

Not him but I'd say it's because buying real btc would be as easy as buying the paper version. Btc isn't cumbersome like gold is and doesn't require you to actually go anywhere and have a lot of security for storing it, paper btc offers no advantages over actually possessing it. Especially considering that actually buying things directly with btc would be far easier than it would be if you had a gold bar.

>>10597120
The one problem we have is point of sale. If that is resolved in that it takes only a few seconds, then they can't really stop it.

>>10597117
I don't see price stabilization until after the next halvening, which is ~2 years away. How high we settle on depends in large part on global economic circumstances. A recession means much higher BTC.

We settle on ~$500k in 2.5 years without a recession, or closer to $750k-1M with a recession.

>>10597120
Technically, if proof of scale is not resolved, transaction costs could go to hundreds or thousands of dollars making it so people wouldn't trade it at all, anyone who wants to use it would need to get a coin that is redeemable for a certain amount of BTC from an institution

>>10597132
A couple lines of code is sufficient to get you ~3 second transaction times.

All you have to do is tell nodes not to recognize a replacement transaction until the original is at least ~2 hours old. The only thing holding back instant point of sale is the idea that you can buy something, then send your BTC again but with a higher miner fee (recognized first, you hope). But if we just change the code not to recognize replacement higher fees, it is all fine.

>>10596868
I'm not convinced that it will. A few autists will take delivery, but now and more so on that scale relatively few people are interested in the physical Bit Coins. At the end of the day most people are here for money, and that still means valuable, trusted fiat currency. They want the real wealth, not a worthless cyber token.

>>10596397
>SEC casually postpones another ETF
>Whales pushes down the price

Hmm, I wonder why... stock up at the lows around late August.

>>10597120
>>10597132
right, more efficient payment processing needs to be developed whether it's lightning network, schnorr, or something else and then the entire PoS monopoly is BTFO
with LN I can see a more decentralized hybrid type of PoS platform that wouldn't allow any type of derivatives

>>10597240
meant point of sale not proof of stake btw

>>10597240
Also, if Bitcoin doesn't scale, someone else will.

>>10597153

im bullish too ,but thats delusional man. 500k in 2.5 years? we wont see 500k for closer to 7 years if we see it. til lthe next halving we will be luck to see 20k again, thats just going by historical trends.

I don't think it'll get too much lower will it? Usually Bitcoin takes a big jump during the holidays, so you would think the floor isn't any lower than 3k. Most likely in the 3.5k-4.5k range.

>>10597260
yeah it'll be interesting to see how it plays out
it seems to achieve one thing you have to sacrifice other qualities of the chain
so we're playing with different variations of this until something new and groundbreaking is developed

>>10597262
The bum rush hasn't even started yet.

Adoption is exponential. We are just now getting organized at the bottom of the curve, about to go vertical. Less than 1% of people have bitcoin, but it is already obvious that this will be a global trend.

Going from 1% to ~100%+ in the next few years. There are just too many efficiencies for it to be any other way. Markets abhor inefficiencies, so markets will adopt bitcoin.

Price will 100x along with adoption.

>>10597322
Do people really give a shit about physical money though? Right now money just circulates within the bank, a business borrows money, pays the cucks, half goes straight back to pay for cucks home, the other half is circles back within 2 weeks via businesses he bought shit from repaying their loans.

>>10597322
Chart to support this post

>>10597322
>100%+

>>10596397
some whales are fucking stupid just like the rest of us. Look at the guy who got liq'd on OKEX for 450m notional position

>>10597467

Yep, some of the whales literally just got lucky getting in super early. Doesn't mean they're actually any smarter.

>>10597453
You can have more than 100% of people if companies are also in on top

>>10597505
Don't you think these brainlets panic sold every previous crash?

>>10597512
well when you put it that way..

>>10597467
theres no way that guy didn't kill himself.

>>10597547
It implies they aren't full blown deluded

>>10597583
You are the most emotional, and least intelligent person in this discussion.

>>10596624
That's my concern as well. They don't operate on high volatility rather shake it off and was trade profits ad infinitum.
See EUR USD.
It takes an armed conflict posing a threat of WW3 to move 5%.

>>10596502
>>10596473
>>10596397
>>10596415
>>10596666
>>10596868
>>10596945
>>10596928
>>10596952
>>10597008
>>10597042
>>10597047
>>10597063
>>10597236
>>10597322
>>10597405
>>10597467

>>10597690
what is emotional about this? there are whales like this in literally dead coins, mere retards who did nothing more than believe and held to the end.

>>10596722
i don't know how cucked people are, but they are skating on thin ice right now. Bail-ins and losses of savings at failing banks are a part of the present and a bigger part of the near future. in the financial world, shit looks like it's really close to hitting the fan.

>>10596415
Hot take from small brained op
>>10596397

>>10596567
Etf is not being prepped for normies. Just whales.

>>10597727
>1 post by this ID.
Hello schlomo. I'm preheating the oven.

the rich don't even buy on exchanges like we do, lol

they use otc accounts and get the price without markets ever knowing about it

>>10596397
>So having a dead market for 2 years is totally against their business models.

They can risk a long multi-year bear market because they've already made it. They have enough cash to last for many years. Their main business model is based on selling crypto. Fees are only a very small part of their income. They can't have holders hoarding the coins so they're shaking as many people out as possible.

>>10596502
>Net inflows to bitcoin since it was created are like $15B.
Stop saying this. You think you're making it seem like "we don't need that much money to pump it" but it really just makes it look like this ponzi scheme can collapse any second. It's closer to 100 billion than 15 billion.

https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/06/02/icos-raise-over-9-billion-six-months-into-2018-surpassing-2017-figures/
Over 15 billion in just ICOs.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/media-bitmex-crypto-exchange-co-founder-becomes-britain-s-youngest-bitcoin-billionaire
Arthur Hayes is probably close to being a billionaire too.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-01/bored-with-banking-this-former-citi-trader-went-full-crypto
>But then Hayes is more a mercenary than a true believer. He’s the guy, after all, who keeps his own money in dollars.

So you saying bitmex has cashed out more than 10% of all the money invested?

http://fortune.com/2018/02/24/bitcoin-mining-bitmain-profits/
3-4 billion last year

http://fortune.com/2018/07/30/bitmain-valuation-profits/
1 billion in Q1

So bitmain made 33% of all the money invested?

>>10596397
Or we are just going to bounce between $6500 and $8000 for all of eternity with no logic to the movement.

>>10597322
>Adoption is exponential. We are just now getting organized at the bottom of the curve

lol

>>10599863
You missed the point entirely. Example, you say 15BN went into ICOs. What if 90% of that came from ETH whales who bought at pennies. How much "real money" does that represent? 15 million?

>>10599863
>>10599863
>>10599964

(1) It is true though. There are more millionaires than there will ever be bitcoins. Any at $1M a coin, nominal wealth far outstrips what the bitcoin marketcap would be.

(2) ICOs didn't raise 9 billion. They got $9 billion of ethereum that they can only slowly convert to cash. Most ethereum was bought for pennies per ether, not $400. ICOs diverted a significant chunk of change, tens of millions of inflow, but not $9 billion.

(3) Bitmain is BY FAR the biggest operator in the space. They mine ~50% of all new coins, and sell the gear to mine another 40%. A $4 billion dollar year for them when bitcoin had a 20x bull run is about right for $15B net in flows.

(4) The small amount of in flows relative to global net worth has ZERO to do with whether bitcoin is a ponzi or not. It is and remains an incontrovertible fact that bitcoin is a superior form of money and store of wealth to anything yet existing, can effortlessly cross borders, resist censorship, and evade authority. Poor normies may not get it, but billionaires that worry about the US debt problem or want to escape their totalitarian Chinese government know that bitcoin is boss and here to stay.

>>10596593
>they figured it's viable to go get an asteroid if needed
You've been watching too many movies.

>>10599928
>He thinks the ebb and flow of normie interests indicate anything fundamental about the technology itself

Eventually this will become a business imperative and it will not be a matter of whether you want to take part, but instead whether you want to waste money by not taking part

Do you know how much money credit card companies steal from the economy each year? 1-4% of every transaction. Ludicrous. Bitcoin + LN + (?) is the answer

>>10599964
Exactly. These brainlets that think you need to invest $100 billion actual dollars into the market to make it VALUED at $100 billion don't know shit about finance.

>>10596397
>>10596473
>>10596595

I want to sell all of my shitcoins after reading this thread.

>>10596397
btc has no future, same as its investors.
I literally begged you retards to sell at 19,5k, you wouldn't hear.

>>10600507
I can't hear you over all my money. Some of us got in way before any of this rush and are still up plenty.

https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoinobituaries/

when I started in this game btc was $4000. (I wish I could have said $4, or at least $400). Maybe, just maybe, I get to say I bought Bitcoin for under a $1000 to my grandkids :D:D:D:D:D::D: it will be the best day of my life.

>>10596666

Checked beautiful digits

>>10596397
Look at the fucking charts. This is the bottom.

>>10601142
disgusting neo-con nazi

thank you for showing this anon, I will not go sell my bags for a coin with a better developer. Not some McDonalds loving, jew-hating fat fuck

>>10597047
>he thinks the banks wont make their own blockchain.

decentralization is a meme.

>>10597322
>~100%+
only 50% of people have access to the internet m8
also wtf is that + supposed to mean?

>>10600133
pretty sure normie interest is relevant to "adoption"

>>10596502
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

>>10596502
the thing is and always will be

it may happen or not

(im into crypto since 10usd btc)

tech, cash always change

in years it can be different

yes gold will be always gold
tech companies vision and portfolio more or less te same

you will always eat corn and may stop with fuel as there will be EVs, lets say gas will always be gas

lithium will always has its use

but crypto will not always be bitcoin and alts, it wont be just these names and these techs, there will be tech on different basis and you cant even have the right view right now

world keeps changin rapidly, but some areas tend to innovate more..

now you are flying with decades old planes (tech) but u dont need to upgrade this experience, yes u want to fly to Mars thats pushing it

(things transform)
you could say that people will abandon trains, well the word train is disappearing from peoples life (also in google books since day one), but it transforms train may become a tunnel (likes teslas hype, thats just a larp for now)

so instead of crypto - send money instantly at #cost/nocost, smart contracts that right now are larps instead of current NEED

things that are not in need are speculative... you speculate with things for cash not for life

gold will have its value as its needed when there is problem with cash (wars) youll never know its also a primal source thats gaining on value since day 1, its still mineable but harder and costly to get.. but still ITS A FUCKING value

>>10599879
I have a feeling that's going to be the case. With slight variation until something major happens.

>>10602287
adding because post too long
paintings got cultural, collective, historical etc value, you may say bitcoin is like a painting, just because others would buy it 100 times more xpensive right? no when there is Jewcoin people rather put funds there.. you may also say even tho btc would go to zero people would still speculate and buy it.. yes but to a limited point, when there would be so much fud that people rather keep observing until new dominant and safe idea emerge... so YES crypto, bitcoin and all that can simply die becaus of new tech that will surely outperform other tech if its not compatible.. its written in people, its all mindfuck and you gotta take smaller steps than believe into something distant.. thats why day/weekly trading if done right would be actually safer than longterm hodl and longterm vision

tldr.. your choice