/biz/ - Business & Finance

lmao what a stupid bitch

he literally talks about Bitcoin. He says that the value of money is determined by the proof of work required for its production. Your face when you realize that the other commodity is electricity.

>>10147100
Therefore, Bitcoin price floor = pic related

>>10147100
>labour-time determines value
what?? you don't want to pay $500 for the piece of metal that i spent hours engraving markings into?? but it's worth that much!!! the same pieces of metal that come from that machine that makes them for $0.000001 are worthless!!!!

>>10147144
no, he does not *literally talk* about bitcoin
bitcoin is like the polar opposite of something that supports marx' shitty theories; the cost to produce bitcoin is quantifiable, and there is LITERALLY NO REASON why you or anyone else should sell below the minimum global cost to mine
bitcoin doesn't fucking expire, it doesn't weigh anything, its transaction times are the same for anyone in the world, it has no concept of country or language or ethnicity—it's purely a coin of free market capitalism, that gets its value from miners expending resources AND WORKING SMART, RATHER THAN NECESSARILY WORKING HARD, in a competition to own the most bitcoin
the only thing that could hope to drive costs down is speculation that the hashrate, and thus, difficulty would drop, but we haven't even gotten to the point where anyone but long-term players are basing their holds on the speculated (and entirely sure-fire at this point; it would be retarded to think that, at the very least, computers are going to suddenly stop getting better, even with die sizes being very small on *silicon* chips) growth of hashrate.

>>10147666
the other aspect to this that almost nobody fucking gets because they are fucking retards is that JUST BECAUSE bitcoin costs $2k for some miners in one fucking town which happens to be a natural gas capital in canada to mine, that doesn't mean that the price should suddenly drop to $2k. same for venezuela, with its "$500 bitcoin mining" (one word for anyone thinking that they're gonna make a profit mining in venezuela: socialism); these remote areas where bitcoin costs below $7k to mine are the ***exception***. bitcoin miners don't give a fucking shit if you want $2k bitcoin; they moved all of their operations to the most profitable locations that they could find so that they could TAKE ADVANTAGE of the electricity costs being HIGH in the rest of the world, so that they could sell bitcoin at a profit. they know that it would likely cost you over $10k to mine a single bitcoin, and they and all of the other people who are buying bitcoin right now would be stupid not to capitalize on that.

>>10147666
I don't get this, people don't understand that the price of bitcoin determines the cost to produce it (e.g. difficulty adjusts such that cost of mining = profit of mining), rather than the cost of producing it determining the price. For a start, the cost of producing didn't cause the bullrun in early 2017 - massive speculation caused the price run, which then caused the cost of producing to go up.

>>10147100
Marx is not talking about Value in the same way modern economists do, this is why in Marxism value = / = price.

Also the creation value in Marxist economics has to be socially nessicary, not all Labour is equal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OqFKWfzh98

Marxian economics is largely behavioural observations, philosophical and sociological. Legit the terms have vastly different meanings than what is used else where in Economics.

>>10147709
Based post. When Marx talks about value, he's talking about something that uniquely happens in capitalist societies, not the general concept of usefulness (tribal, feudal and capitalist societies all have socially useful labour). This is very different to how we usually use the term 'value'.

Press S to shit on this dead kike’s grave

>>10147692
?
bitcoin has no built-in way of registering or following what its own price is. furthermore, just for example, there were two points in time where bitcoin reached $1k, and at both of these points in time the hashrate and difficulty was wildly different.
people can speculate on price; it is a free market, after all. the problem with many people is that they don't even think that hashrate relative to the cost of hashing power is a variable, when it is arguably the most important variable between each halvening cycle. miners are drawing the charts; they've drawn a triple bottom, sure, but they've almost completed the appearance of a full market cycle. i look all over the place, and see people thinking that the price is going to $2k; they're in for a ripe justing.

>>10147144
>actually thinking labor theory of value is correct and has any credibility today

yes keep thinking that goy while the rich destroy this planet for the masses and use their money to secure the only habitable spots left on earth and in space. btw marx was a jew, he is literally a false messiah sent to deceive u retards and u fall for it hook line and sinker

>>10147666
This. Too bad commies can't read more than 2 sentences critizing their fairytale.

>i have a berry
>you have a rock
>we exchange berry for rock

>i have a berry
>you don't have a rock but will get one tomorrow
>you pay me money for berry, which I can later use to buy a rock from you

It's literally that simple. Money is a necessity when bartering becomes impossible.

>>10147100
>>Money, [...], cannot express the magnitude of its value except relatively in other commodities. This value [of money] is determined by the labour-time required for its production, and is expressed by the quantity of any other commodity that costs the same amount of labour-time.

Except he was wrong. Walking on beach, see huge diamond. Pick it up. Labour time nil. Value huge. Purchase things that take years of man hours to produce.Marx was a dipshit. An enormous gibbering anus.

>>10147100
Which marxist value are you talking about? use value or exchange value?

Also, money has no value anymore. Back in the day people would use gold/silver/copper coins, which by themselves had value. Today with fiduciary money, money itself is purely a means of exchange.

Your second "[of money]" is a wrong inference, since what determines the USE value of things is labor-time, but exchange value is not the same thing as price and is a lot more complex to determine due to social/cultural/economical variables.

>This value [of money] is determined by the labour-time required for its production

kek

>>10148799
>Marxist
>>10148797
>An enormous gibbering anus.
>>10148799
>has no value anymore.
>>10147115
>what a stupid bitch

>>10147100
This is why these retards are always poor. Kek

>>10149418
It's usually NEETs and poorfags that are Marxists unironically.

>>10147692
The cost of production of a Picaso is rather low compared to how high it goes. Bitcoin is the same. You will see people paying millions for one. Bitcoin is the new way in which billionaires trade value instead of having to carry big ass paintings.

Money is a human tool used to store and extend labor.

>>10147709
What? No! You cant post informed shit!

>labour theory of value
uhhh... are we in the 19th century or something? lmao. Let me BTFO you rn:
>oil barrel $ price
>labour performed by AI/algorithms
>literally all financial markets

>>10148749
>i have money printing machine
>i buy all berries from you
>you become slave berrying productor

>>10149793
>money backed by nothing has value

>>10149675

I am a Marxist

I'm not retarded and actually know how to invest

I recognize he was wrong about certain shit, the state will never voluntarily whither away for example.

But, he did relatively accurately predict the capitalist crisis cycle over the next 100 years after he died. Soooooooooo yah.

As in, recessions don't happen because of all the shit you hear about in mainstream economics. They happen because they are an inherent part of capitalist economies.

>>10149729

Right, but people still have to program and maintain those algorithms.

It's just crazy hardcore automation, which did exists in primitive forms back then.

Uh, no?!

Some items are unrelative to their labour costs because of other factors such as resource availability, environment, etc, in which it might not share equally with other commodities.

>>10147666
Average labor time determines value.

>>10149828
not unless you own all the land so the berry caveman can't even leave without working for you :^)

>>10147424
what an unfathomable waste of energy this all is

>>10149999
>Community owns all the land
>Berry caveman can't leave at all

>>10149991
>Workers mad that automation is undercutting them
>Kill all the bourgeousie creating the shortcuts
>Back in stone age
>Now average labor time is higher again

>>10149991
No value is relative.
This is basic micro economics.

>>10150063
>Proletariat mob lynchees anyone who says "value is relative"
>Value is now absolute

>>10150075
>Proletariat mob then causes a decrease in prices of manufactured goods and an increase in prices of food due to scarcity
>Tries to fix this by making food free and quotas for manufactured goods via a command economy
>Leads to food lines which is just a proxy of ones time preference relative to food instead of using free market pricing.
Gotta love that not real communism.

>>10147144
Literally!

>>10149991
so would a city that had been built entirely with outdated machinery, taking 30 years to build, be more valuable than the exact same, right down to the very atom, city that had been made in 30 minutes through the utilization of highly advanced equipment?

>>10147424
>I burnt $10000 worth of hundred dollar bills. >So the ash is worth $10000 too!

>>10149828
which is why anyone not selling everything and goin all in on bitcoin is a retard

>but bitcoin is backed by now

stay poor and reading marx

>>10150002
>having the only unconfiscable, true sovereign asset on earth is a waste of time compared to gold extraction and banking system

>>10149952
yeah so because capitalism sucks dick, we must replace it with an even more shit idea. please attempt to use your brains you dumbasses, the solution to our problems very well might have not been thought up by humans yet and the fact that the current state of society can change the outcomes of any political system needs to be accounted for.

like for example, what if ai becomes prevalent? what will happen to the theory of value then? ai does everything a human does but infinitely better and more efficient with significantly lower costs, so in that scenario, humans like you would be fucked and tossed aside for being inferior. same scenario happens with designer babies replacing the current generation.

and for something like muh gun rights and second amendment supporting conservatards, the time when they made the 2nd amendment never accounted for the progression in technology like machine guns, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, etc. what conservatards don't realize is that the amendment system was literally designed to account for this, you don't stick with the same fucking amendment for life, you change and add laws based on the circumstances. also they are incredibly naive in thinking that the average untrained obese shit stain in the population has any chance against the military who have been trained to kill without hesistation and have weapon technology light years ahead of what normies have. you aren't fighting against tyranny for shit, and it's not like the government need to oppress with violence nowadays anyways, social engineering is a thing and it's why any chance of revolution like humans did in the past in today's time is fucking 0.

and then the reverse with libtards and gun control, you can't just rely on muh background checks now when there are 3d printers that can print guns within hours. also arbitrarily restricting guns and shit like knives on muh looks and feels instead of actual lethality and practical use is pretty fucking stupid

everyone's so mad at labor theory of value because it proves that "economics" is a scam

>>10149991

>>10151094
how does it feel to be such a massive brainlet?

>>10151094
but its wrong lol if it wasn't wrong communism would have resulted in societies more advanced than capitalist ones and the ussr would have won the cold war

>>10147100
Roger Ver, Jihan Wu, Calvin Ayre, The 8btc mod (19hZx234vNtLazfx5J2bxHsiWEmeYE8a7k), Jiang Zhouer, the bitcoin.com cofounder, the Coinbase founder - all BILLIONAIRES who can complete the flippening with their own cash TODAY.
They're not doing so because they'd rather invest in BCH adoption. BCH adoption is skyrocketing while btc adoption is dropping.
In a few years both St Kitts and Antigua will use BCH as their main currency (Roger is working on St Kitts, Calvin is investing in Antigua more money than their GDP exclusively because of BCH adoption), Craig Wright will increase transaction counts by circumventing corrupt governments in Africa for money transfers (this one is not certain but very possible considering his funding), Roger is speaking to VIP-s every other day, including Japanese bank CEO-s, stock exchange owners, etc. Brian Armstrong will push BCH and shit on BTC subtly every chance he gets, bitcoin.com wallet is the most popular mobile wallet and it literally shits on BTC, propaganda/censorship effects are fading, Purse just added BCH meaning that normies can use it to get 20% discounts on amazon, Koreans love BCH and they seem to matter at least as much as Americans and significantly more than eurofags, miners are looking for ways to destroy BTC in the next few years otherwise their profits will crumble, LN is proving more and more of a failure every single day, Wright will patent-troll startups into moving into BCH, tipping on github is now possible with bch, smart contracts are coming in November, stress tests are a massive success, charities are popularizing BCH in struggling countries (Venezuela today, others will join in if trouble arises), Free Society project is progressing well, Circle is adding BCH next few weeks, Ayre who became a billionaire from gambling is going to create BCH-only online casinos

>>10150582
that's not what the cost to mine argument is about; it doesn't matter how much it DID cost someone to mine bitcoin, the argument is how much it CURRENTLY WILL cost someone to mine bitcoin; the other aspect to this is speculation over how much it will cost in the future
if the cost to mine suddenly dropped to $10 per coin because of some massive innovation in energy production or computer technology or what have you, then yeah, bitcoin's intrinsic value would plummet because the barrier to get one's hands on a single bitcoin would be so low—but, obviously, because of the nature of innovations and the naturally competitive landscape of bitcoin mining, this time wouldn't last for even ten minutes, if that, as the people who had the ability to mine (or buy, thanks to unfortunately dumb panic sellers) for $10 per coin would use their ridiculously unique position to their advantage, and they'd ride the waves of the coming speculative value when the technology to mine so efficiently spread to the hands of everyone who buys it.

>>10151094
nigga, pic related is specifically for you
why would you advocate spending your whole life slaving away at menial, needless tasks when you can let innovators produce shittons of things in a free market economy, in which they ACTUALLY have to produce and suit the demands of their customers to get a leg up over everyone else rather than building a bureaucracy that they can flex control over everyone in
i don't fucking get bureaucrats and communists, man—like, i just don't fucking get them
if they want power, then they should let the free market grow! rather, they want everyone else to be weak while they are powerful, but only relative to everyone else under the bureaucracy
it's like wanting to be the king of shit over being a citizen in the greatest, most wealthy, most healthy, most happy, and most liberty-minded society ever
just
what the fuck kind of logic is that

>>10151150
Well Russia and China industrialized faster than most capitalist nations at the time. I think generally capitalist economies can create better war economies which is what led to Russia losing the war of attrition

>>10151071
>You can't defeat the military therefore you have no right to arm yourself

The founding fathers didn't anticipate advanced weaponry like nukes but they anticipated the government becoming corrupt and needing to be overthrown. You're too focused on the technicalities rather than the general concept. T

Banning guns based on lethality is pointless when criminals are still able to get any gun through the black market.

>>10151618
>I think generally capitalist economies can create better war economies

they seem to work pretty fine peactime too

and i mean communist govts are generally the agressors (e.g. north korea)
and china isn't communist anymore. it's a capitalist dictatorship.

>>10151618
i'm not even sure which truly free market capitalist nations they beat in industrialization, but if this is the case then they industrialized and produced less overall, hence all of the mass starvations
you force everyone to do what you want to do at gunpoint, hence all of the mass killings, and the productivity of your thing goes up 50% while productivity of everything else in the country goes down 90%, hence all of the mass starvations
you also have crummier doctors that don't care whether their patients are actually healthy or not because everyone is beat down and miserable—so they don't dare demand anything, like a thorough examination—and the doctor has no incentive to actually help them
if someone outside of the system produces a useful medicine for a less common ailment, there's no way in hell they're gonna be able to make their well-earned cut from its distribution and production
if it treats a condition that the government finds useful in the suppression of the population's free will, then it may even be buried, and the person who made it killed
communism, and collectivism at large, is just utterly worse

>>10151774
this, industrialisation was extremely forced, in my shithole(Romania) thousands of people were literally moved out of their homes to God knows where the commies were building something.

>>10151618
>Russia and China industrialized faster than most capitalist nations at the time
No, Russia was industrializing before the soviets took power and its likely in spit of communism that Russia industrialized rather then because of. Russia grew very slowly and the only reason it grew faster then those around it was because the world was undergoing a terrible depression because the US FED fucked a recession up with very poor policy choices.
China didn't industrialize till the 80s when they ditched communist though and moved towards liberalizing their economies. In fact under communist policies all their neighbors grew exponentially under the free market, see Japan and Korea. If you want a state that industrialized overnight look at Japan in the 19th century, when they liberalized their economy and government they had the largest economic growth per-capita in history.

The objectively best economy is an omniscent, impartial, decentralized, immutable Oracle that has solved the socialist computation problem and allocates resources along democratic input optimally to maximize quality of life according to a set system of values along the lines of a dynamic constitution.

This is what modern day, smart Socialists talk about when they talk about Socialism as a set of principles on how to transform the current day capitalist society with all it's flaws into the direction of something utopian in principle, but through iteration and technology pragmatic in reality.

>>10151738
The state owns major industries and technically all land so it's more of a socialist dictatorship.

>>10151683
except if the technicalities don't work then ur just distracting urself from coming up with an actual replacement to a dinosaur amendment.

black market exists only because of inconsistent gun regulation throughout states which liberals are trying to combat. it's too easy to smuggle a gun from a neighboring state that has less gun regulation, however if gun regulation were consistent throughout the country, it would be possible to cut down on crime and gun circulation(without considering the fact of 3d printers). there's also smuggling through mexico, but honestly we should just annex them and replace their government with our laws. gun smugglign from canada usually never happens because they have much more consistent gun regulation. if our country were isolated like japan, and this was like 300 years back, the libtard mindset of gun control would definitely work, but like i labeled in my previous posts, you have to consider the circumstances of now, not whatever idealist garbage that people think their system would work in.

>>10152009
This is actually the only reason blockchain gives me a boner

>>10151865
>Beginning in 1928, the course of the Soviet Union economy was guided by a series of five-year plans. By the 1950s, during the preceding few decades the Soviet Union had rapidly evolved from a mainly agrarian society into a major industrial power. Its transformative capacity—what the White House National Security Council of the United States described as a "proven ability to carry backward countries speedily through the crisis of modernization and industrialization"—meant communism consistently appealed to the intellectuals of developing countries in Asia. Impressive growth rates during the first three five-year plans (1928–1940) are particularly notable given that this period is nearly congruent with the Great Depression. During this period, the Soviet Union encountered a rapid industrial growth while other regions were suffering from crisis. Nevertheless, the impoverished base upon which the five-year plans sought to build meant that at the commencement of Operation Barbarossa the country was still poor

>>10151865
> nation goes from Haiti-tier industrialization to sending Gagarin to space within a timespan of 50 years
sure as shit sounds impressive to me my man

>>10152009
Explain how you avoid power vacuums from being created anyway, which would challenge whatever the so called perfect Oracle dictated, because what, even if it's perfect, person A is going to watch X thing now allowed by "Oracle", and it's going to get it if he finds a way to do so, and he will due power vacuum.

>>10152009
thing is democratic input, from who? the people or the people doing maintenance on the system to make sure it's working properly? how do we know that the code isn't corrupt from the getgo to benefit whales? how do u make the population accept this sort of system? etc. what u wrote sounds good but u need to think about the feasibility of implementing it. u can't just tell people that we're implementing this shit and expect people to trust it 100% or even consent to that kind of rule. also time, the time it would take to implement this globally could take too long that it would be met with resistance from technological scares that whales could maliciously use to stop it, and the next generation could just fuck the system up even if it were to succeed, how would you stop this?

Explain how you avoid power vacuums from being created anyway, which would challenge whatever the so called perfect Oracle dictated, because even if it's perfect and somehow it was objectively correct to rationalize resources that way, there will always be peoeple that is going to want "X" thing not allowed by "Oracle", and it's going to get it if he finds a way to do so, and he will due power vacuum.

>>10152390
I was replying to:

>>10152009
myself

The only way to force people is of course, violence by "the State" once again, so nothing really changes. There's always going to be black markets. If I see a hot girl and I want to fuck her I will offer her some BTC, and if she wants to buy a Ferrari (which is not allowed by the Oracle) she will accept my BTC, and here we go again.

>>10152390
From the people voting on certain issues that arise along the path where the Oracle has no clear cut answer already and doesn't know what the people want before they themselves know what they want.
The whole thing rests on the idea that through technology an AI or a similar entity perfectly knows what every individuals needs and capabilities are and can infer everything else from that to equally distribute the resources of this planet in a way that benefits everyone optimally.
There are no whales, money is abolished along the way, there are no markets and with equality and education one can hope that humans are able to grow out of their rent-seeking behaviour and greed, if there is a system that acts in their enlightened self-interest.

You arrive there either democratically by people seeing the advantages of the system or through (possibly violent) revolution, most likely a combination of both.

>>10152428
The Oracle knows what people want and if there is a person that wants X and doesn't get it the Oracle just denies it to them. If the person breaks the accepted social contract of such a society he'll be punished in some form or rather convinced that the persons wants are extraordinary and not needed for optimal quality of life.
>>10152451
If you have to force a very small minority to adher to a system that leaves 99,9999...% of the population enough freedom to live the almost best human experience humanly possible some violence is very likely justified.

>>10152555
Who needs a fucking Oracle - just plug your weekly grocery list into a machine

>>10152569
This is one of the more obvious things. The machine kind of learns what your preferences are, checks against a resource table and probably knows what you are going to need for the next 6 months before you know what you want to eat tomorrow. You could train it the learn to maximize the enjoyment of your meals for you, make sure they are healthy enough and enter a sort of dialectic with an artifial intelligence that weighs your preferences against resources and how much work/energy the production is going to cost.
Since agriculture is mostly clean water, fertile soil and sunlight food supplies are theoretically only capped by land and the amount of nitrogen you can pull out of the air, which let's you feed the population of this planet multiple times over.

Where you need an Oracle is for things like infrastructure, providing public services, working with scientists to foster innovation optimally, develop future cities, coordinate pretty much every human labour or input that is necessary and spitting out a computation that is at least as good as capitalism.

>>10147100
He is talking about this

>>10152555
>and if there is a person that wants X
There will not be one, but massive amounts. So markets outside of this society will arise. There will be moguls parking their wealth (derived from the huge demand of things not delivered by the "Oracle") in Bitcoin.

>From the people voting on certain issues that arise along the path where the Oracle has no clear cut answer already and doesn't know what the people want before they themselves know what they want.

Where there is a voting process with people involved there is corruption. Democracy is a power vacuum which will always be open for the mastermind with the most resources to fill it.

>If you have to force a very small minority to adher to a system that leaves 99,9999...% of the population enough freedom to live the almost best human experience humanly possible some violence is very likely justified.

Delusional. For instance, there will be many mad incels trying to rape Stacies. 20% of Chads will be doing all the fucking while doing nothing, just enjoying automation and perpetual vacation. Incels will be mad that they can't no longer have access to Stacies through money. This is already an huge and eternal demand which leads to an huge market, thus some form of money is to constantly arise under any type of system (prostitution is pretty much the seed for money). So unless you are living in a society consisting on 1:1 robot clones I don't see it working long term.

>>10153537
The Chad-Stacy-Incel dynamic is a product of economic struggle within the market. You're still thinking within the old paradigm.