/3/ - 3DCG

Organization and comments everywhere are the answer.

i like node graphs esp if they come with organisation tools like the ones in subs designer or houdini.

even without those though, as long as they're constructed with readability in mind, they let you see the overall structure of a thing much more efficiently than the alternatives.

>>677956
>Reptoid detected
My main problem is that there are no alternatives, so no matter what program I use I'm screwed if I want to create anything even slightly complicated. And if I knew how to read node graphs I would be designing processors instead, not trying to make 3D animations.

>>677963
>if I knew how to read node graphs
That's your problem right there. Just learn to read them.

>>677963
i honestly don't understand what you thought 3d animation is. essentially it's just vector doing vector things also matrices. of course there is fuckload of numbers and functions. and the only way to not to code all that shit manually is to connect functions and data with noodles. and node workflow is pretty fucking based because you can code impressive and functional shit without being a a real programmer. overcome your inner brainlet and embrace the spaghetti.

>>677967
Isn't what you describe mostly related to rigging? Does an animator really have to deal with those technical aspects, instead of mostly using just the curve/dopesheet views?

>>677967
>the only way to not to code all that shit manually is to connect functions and data with noodles
You can do that with coding too. And much easier, since instead of wiring up a node for simple arithmetic you can just press the appropriate button on the keyboard. Not to mention IT'S EASIER TO FUCKING READ.

>without being a a real programmer
Do you think what you're doing isn't "real programming"? Maybe you're the brainlet for not realizing how writing a few lines of code could potentially save you from having to play connect-the-dots for hours.

>>677969
the dude above complains about dem nodes so he touched rigging, obviously.
>>677971
>i'm so smart i'd rather code all that shit
>can't read a node graph nor understand why it's done the way it is
what a loser. go to /v/, maybe you'll impress somebody out there.

>>677975
>HURR I AM LE ARTIST THAT MEANS I DON'T CODE EVEN THOUGH IT'S TECHNICALLY WHAT I DO BUT DON'T CALL IT THAT BECAUSE LE 3D IS LE SPECIAL

>>677971
>>677976
>code
>when he can't even figure out a node graph
Also Houdini lets you just use code, not that you'd be smart enough to use it anyway.

>>677952
The general trend is to move away from - say - layer or stack based approaches.

Node graphs are nothing new. PRISMS(Houdini's predecessor) had nodes from the start(1987), compositing tools like Media Illusion had nodes since 1990.

Untangling - say - a project in a non-nodal software passed on from another artist took me way longer. You have no idea how much time I wasted in the last 20 years getting into 3ds/maya/lightwave scenes that other artists and companies tossed to me without any comment.

>>677971
>Maybe you're the brainlet for not realizing how writing a few lines of code could potentially save you from having to play connect-the-dots for hours.
afraid of some pictures you fucking fag lord?

>>677953
This. It shouldn't be an issue unless the node graph is for something really complicated, which would mean it's probably really niche, or you are a brainlet.

>>677971
>Maybe you're the brainlet for not realizing how writing a few lines of code could potentially save you from having to play connect-the-dots for hours.

i'm >>677956
and i sort of agree. i don't rig very often, so i can't speak to that, but in houdini, when given a choice between writing vex in a wrangle and doing a node graph in a VOP, i'll usually pick the wrangle because doing logic operations in a node graph is quite honestly, more complicated. that's not to suggest that VOP node networks have no worth - they can be fun if you just want to fuck around an explore new things without having to dive into the docs.

as far as shading is concerned though, i'll take a nodegraph over anything else since it just feels easier to explore options and organise things.

that said i'd take node graphs over what this >>677982
anon describes in almost any scenario.

>>677952

I mean, I used to feel that way, too. It definitely is daunting at first. But after a certain amount of time using it, you eventually see the beauty of a system organized like this. It's like people who swear by Maya's Hotbox system: at first, it's annoying as fuck, but after spending enough time in it, it becomes natural.

I think they're super helpful. Having to actually program something visual line by line would be hell for most artists. Node graphs make it possible to actually see what the fuck is going on.

>>677971
>easier to read
You have never coded in your life. I can assure you that the code equivalent of something like >>677967 is a LOT less easy to read. The nodes take care of all the bootstrapping and sometimes even typecasts etc for you.

>>678611
i mashed all the workspaces into one to make a screenshot and spook the op
actual rig assemblies are easy to navigate and properly named. i don't use comments because i know my rig anyway so why bother. this is fingers workspace

>>677967

>you didnt think 3d animation is just manipulating node graphs all day? what are you some kind of imbecile??

im a senior animator at a mid level studio and havent touched a node graph in years. literally kys

you rarely need to use nodes for 3d animation. unless you're doing some procedural shit with modulation a traditional rig system can be handled with a simple script, which every package supports. nodes are more for things that are reusable like ocean waves, building destruction, big fx stuff that can just be hot swapped for another piece of geometry.

>>678622
3d animation isn't just ik handle pulling, my fellow senior monkey.

>>677952
learn to code

>>677952
kek, take the programming redpill, OP. Much cleaner and neat, and without any bounds.

use nodegroups dummy.
make your own uber-groups and improve your workflow.

for example, one day i needed to make more texture slots for a shader and blender only lets you have 1 texture per shader so i made a group that allows more, i also added B&W and decals slots and many more options for later use

ahem...
MODO?

>>677952
>LEARN TO CODE

>>677952
Comment your shit

>>677975
Not him, but visual programming has been proven time and time again not to work. If we're talking about linear action flows, we are much better at expressing ourselves through code.

Just try it, you'll like it.

>>677952
Because node graph architecture is a natural emergent behavior when developing large and complex software under OO meme. So people notice this pattern and starts accomodating node architecture from the ground up instead.
https://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0307278

>>678622
>animator
>rigger
>compartmentalized
>potential damage minimized
oh no no look at this poor untrusted pleb cog im the machine

>>678622
You know senior title just means youre old right?

>>677952
It's been around for a while:
https://youtu.be/VhM_LxeKgEQ?t=74

They're used because the complex interactions would be difficult to visualise with a list as you'd have many vertical lines linking different elements and sub-elements..

For braindead simple things that could have just been options in a menu, they're too complex.

For complex things that are going to require a spaghetti mess of nodes and noodles, they're too unwieldy and I'd rather write it myself.

They're only really good for the middle ground between those two things.

>>678612
That's almost art in and of itself. You should make it more symmetrical.

Someone should writ a plugin that moves things vertically, too. Make a bunch of neat art out of functional node setups for doubleplus cool.

Grasshopper works pretty well as a node graph, partly because it has a bunch of functions just for managing information structure and flow. If you use them intelligently you can do complex things without having a huge mess of wires and nodes.

>>679815
>experienced
in contrast to (You)

>>677969
Shader are done with nodes, blueprints too, level scripting also, theses nodes based approach frees us from programmers, they basically make coding accessible.

>>677967
True that, visual node base programming gives you power, embrace it or be that annoying co-worker who always complains about the tools.